D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Garthanos]

If we want to talk about what the 4e fighter can pull off, let’s include things like stunning and dazing—something a 5e character needs magic to accomplish. The 5e fighter can’t push back an enemy a dozen feet into a clump of other foes and knock them all prone. They can’t temporarily gain resistance to damage, to completely shrug off weaker attacks. They can’t take on a focused stance that allows them to strike at nearby foes when those enemies simply start their turns. The list goes on.

Nods the fighter lacks anything but a very simplistic scale... aka the maneuvers are not level gated leaving 1 with minor affects against 1 target the whole career. (without spending all resources for each target)

 

[Manbearcat]

The presence of rules does not determine what a roleplaying game is or is not about.

Not sure I'm interested in the greater conversation here, but this is an interesting side-bar.

Definitely don't agree with this.

What a game incentivizes and disincentivizes certainly has a lot to say about what a game is about.

Moldvay's Wandering Monster Rules interaction with the rest of the system to incentivize consideration and discretion in how you spend individual Exploration Turns in any given sequence of them and your Exploration Turns in total in your delve. The relative scantness of resources, total loadout, and fragility of low level PCs does the same.

These rules plus other aspects of the system clearly tell you what the game is about:

Consideration and discretion to maximize resources (which includes time) in delving.

4e, the game invoked in the lead post, does the same. You've got Theme/Race/Class/Background in the Heroic Tier and a Greek myth-inspired Points of Light setting set-up. You've got a Minor/Major Quest system with player authorship. You've got robust PCs that have a lot of staying power, are incentivized to run to the fray and push on despite being diminished, while relying upon each other to unlock their potential. You've got scene-based action resolution mechanics that require you to drive play toward conflict that interfaces with the Quest System, Character Theme, and the Points of Light setting. You've got Story Setbacks/Losses on failures in Skill Challenges and Combat.

These rules plus other aspects of the system clearly tell you what the game is about:

A fellowship of bold, stalwart heroes, advocating hard for their individual and collective thematic interests, relying upon their bond as they take on the classical myth of the darkness defeating the light.


Mouse Guard, Torchbearer, My Life With Master, Dogs in the Vineyard, Blades in the Dark, and tons of other games are the same or even moreso tightly correlated (holistic system telling you what game is about).

 

[cbwjm]

One thing I think about with 4e, is that the real sameyness between powers is actually within the powers of the same class. I remember looking through powers to convert to 5e and thinking that some higher level powers just looked like lower level powers but with bigger numbers. I think it would have been better to simply allow lower level powers to scale every so often, it may have saved some space. This would have also been great for those powers that didn't have a higher level version but which you really liked for your build.

 

[Garthanos]

This would have also been great for those powers that didn't have a higher level version but which you really liked for your build.

On my list too. I definitely feel some powers become very signature. Working under the paradigm of all martial classes are martial artists I made this.

 

[Garthanos]

Note the heavy hitter at level 5 for the fighter I seem to recall scaled naturally and so giving others a scale was not going to harm anything.

 

[FrogReaver]

One thing I think about with 4e, is that the real sameyness between powers is actually within the powers of the same class. I remember looking through powers to convert to 5e and thinking that some higher level powers just looked like lower level powers but with bigger numbers. I think it would have been better to simply allow lower level powers to scale every so often, it may have saved some space. This would have also been great for those powers that didn't have a higher level version but which you really liked for your build.

I remember that being quite frustrating many time.

 

[Garthanos]

The power I made above is not a new power actually just one where i added scaling and made the flavor text fully my own.

It occurs to me if I want to be serious I need to both feet and have my Greater Qi Channeling damage scale too.

 

[FrogReaver]

There were many builds I considered that I back away from because they only had 1-2 encounter or daily powers that really had the kind of effect I was wanting. Most of the best builds were ones where you could have nearly all yours powers focused around whatever combo you were building towards.

 

[Minigiant]

One thing I think about with 4e, is that the real sameyness between powers is actually within the powers of the same class. I remember looking through powers to convert to 5e and thinking that some higher level powers just looked like lower level powers but with bigger numbers. I think it would have been better to simply allow lower level powers to scale every so often, it may have saved some space. This would have also been great for those powers that didn't have a higher level version but which you really liked for your build.

I noticed that as well. A lot of space could have been saved by making the first few instances of powers just upgrade. That could have been the gimmick for the martial power source. Martials upgrade their exploits. Arcanist get new spells. Psionics augment their at wills with power points. Something something divine characters.

But really the same is in non4e D&D.
Why are fireball and delayed blast fireball 2 different spells? It's not as bad in 5e but 3e was full of "same spell but stronger". Then they had the nerve to sell you "same spell but different target or different damage type.". Is it all a scam to force my cheapskate wizard to research in books or buy more tweaked spells scrolls.

Red Grumpy: It's part of the gnomish conspiracy!

 

[NotAYakk]

One thing I think about with 4e, is that the real sameyness between powers is actually within the powers of the same class. I remember looking through powers to convert to 5e and thinking that some higher level powers just looked like lower level powers but with bigger numbers. I think it would have been better to simply allow lower level powers to scale every so often, it may have saved some space. This would have also been great for those powers that didn't have a higher level version but which you really liked for your build.

So you have up to 3 encounter attack powers from your class. At level 1, 3, 7 you gain a new one. Then st 13, 17, 23, 27 you get to upgrade one. Assuming you replace your lowest power, thst means:
1->13->27
3->17
7->23
are where powers are replaced. And similarly for daily:
1->15->29
5->19
9->25

Instead of cluttering L3 powers with upgrade rules, they put an upgraded version at L17. This is game wise nearly identical, but it makes the L3 rules a bit easier to read.

Like many things in 4e, it was designed to be played not read. You where intended to start at level 1, then adventure, level up. And repeat. When you got to level 13, you'd be told "you can replace a power with a new one". Your choice is likely to include a power that is a nice upgrade to the trusty level 1 power you've had all along! As well as some other picks.

So instead of "I don't want to upgrade, I like my level 1 power", you are told "well great, here is one you won't mind picking". Importantly, if you played the game a level at a time, you never had to know this was coming; you just ran into level 13, and it happened to be arranged to give you what you want.

For the first 12 levels, what happens at level 13 didn't matter. So there where no rules in the first 13 levels of stuff that tells you what happens at level 13.

---

Now it also permitted double dipping. Instead of replacing L7 power (come and get it) with the L23 version, the epic fighter could keep both, instesd replacing a L13 power with a L23. They could do the same with a L5 daily at L19.

That resulted in some interesting system mastery tricks you can do.

Had they had upgrading powers, either they eould require you to burn a power upgrade on them (which is annoying to write the words for), or the free upgrade would have to be accounted for in character power budgets (balance math). They where trying to avoid quadratic wizard syndrome from 3e, where you gained a linear number of powers each of linear strength.

Each new upgrade gave you one unit of power upgrade. If low level powers auto-upgraded to be on par, you could bump a different power up and break the budget a bit. It would probably still work, but the concern is valid.