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D&D 5E Are proficiency swaps too strong for some races?

ScuroNotte

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You can swap out armor or a weapon for a weapon or tool. In the example, an elf can swap a long sword for a tool as per page 8. So if a player playing an Elf martial character who already gains martial weapons through the class, can swap the 4 weapons (longsword, shortsword, shortbow, longbow) for 4 tools. Or a martial Mountain Dwarf character can exchange 4 weapons and 2 armor proficiencies for 6 tools.
Or am I over reacting.
 

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Even if that is how your DM approaches tools the actual use you will get out of tool proffeciencies will be pretty limited and most likely only get you info or advantages you could have gotten in a number of other ways aswell.
I disagree. Most DMs in my experience tend to err on the permissive side when it comes to opportunities to utilize your proficiencies... as long as you ask. A lot of players don’t tend to ask for some reason, but seriously, try it and see. When the DM asks for a check with a skill you don’t have proficiency with, ask if you can apply your proficiency with a tool. As long as the connection makes some kind of sense, there’s a good chance they’ll let you.

For extra tool proficiencies to be actually "too strong" there would have to be an actual crafting system where those prof's would net you either recources, items, buffs or gold (and then another system to actually spend it) instead of just RP-fluff or minor narrative advantages. And in your classic, non-homebrewed 5E game they don't.
Well, first of all I don’t think extra tool proficiencies are too strong at all. I think people freaking out over hill dwarves being the best race now are overreacting. That said, 5e does have a crafting system. It’s pretty barebones and most DMs in my experience don’t use it. But it does exist.
 

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I kind of leave adding tool proficiency to checks up to the players. It mostly never comes up except thieves' tools. I could ask more about tools, but I tend to give a stat check or just add the skill directly by saying "Make a Investigation check", instead of saying "You can add proficiency if you have smith tools".
When you say “make an Investigation check,” you kind of cut off the player’s opportunity to suggest adding a tool proficiency. Like, sure, they can say “can I add my Alchemist’s Tools proficiency instead?” but most players won’t do that, as they figure you had a reason to ask for the skill you asked for. But when you just say “make an Intelligence check, with Investigation proficiency if you have it,” it gets a little easier to ask to sub in another proficiency (be it tool or skill), and when you just say “make an Intelligence check” you make suggesting a proficiency part of their role.
I could also make checks only if you have the skill in tools. Say the PCs are looking over a forge area and there is a chance to notice a fake set of tools there. Would a check only for those that have the tool proficiency be allowed, or are you now restricting the adventure by placing a block only one PC has a chance to get through. Or is it just easier if they have the tool proficiency and the others are just making a Int check or such.
I’m a big fan of this approach. Most DM do it with thieves tools already, I see no reason not to do it with other proficiencies.
 

Again: thieves' tools, disguise kit, herbalism kit. All tool proficiencies, and all have objective uses without any need to invoke strong optional rule support. (Herbalism kit is maybe a stretch there, but the text DOES explicitly support crafting healing potions with one.) Thieves' tools and disguise kit though are unambiguously useful in essentially all campaigns; picking locks and concealing identities are both simply useful things to do, even if you play a pure murderhobo game.
Not a single 5E campaign I have ever run has ever had a PC use a Disguise Kit. Not once. Because Disguise Self is a 1st level spell and thus relatively easy to get into the party.

And yes, someone can take Thieves Tools. Which means you now have a second (or in some cases a third) PC with that proficiency, and most likely that character has a lower Dexterity than the rogue that took it, and thus that second (or third) PC will barely ever use it.

So suggesting that this rule always produces overpowered characters is just wrong. It all depends on the DM.
 

I mean this is clearly imbalanced, some races now are just flat out better than others. Now in practice this imbalance is so small that it probably doesn't matter terribly much, but that was the situation before these extra rules too. So as an attempt to improve the balance of the races it fell flat. 🤷‍♀️
 

I mean this is clearly imbalanced, some races now are just flat out better than others. Now in practice this imbalance is so small that it probably doesn't matter terribly much, but that was the situation before these extra rules too. So as an attempt to improve the balance of the races it fell flat. 🤷‍♀️
I don’t think improving the balance of races was ever the goal. The goal was to free races up to be paired with classes they aren’t typically, without having to sacrifice your primary ability score.
 

I don’t think improving the balance of races was ever the goal. The goal was to free races up to be paired with classes they aren’t typically, without having to sacrifice your primary ability score.
But some races is still better for certain classes than other races, now it just happens that mountain dwarves and perhaps half elves are better for almost any class than any other races. So I'd say the situation is actually worse than before and certainly not any better.
 

I disagree. Most DMs in my experience tend to err on the permissive side when it comes to opportunities to utilize your proficiencies... as long as you ask. A lot of players don’t tend to ask for some reason, but seriously, try it and see. When the DM asks for a check with a skill you don’t have proficiency with, ask if you can apply your proficiency with a tool. As long as the connection makes some kind of sense, there’s a good chance they’ll let you.


Well, first of all I don’t think extra tool proficiencies are too strong at all. I think people freaking out over hill dwarves being the best race now are overreacting. That said, 5e does have a crafting system. It’s pretty barebones and most DMs in my experience don’t use it. But it does exist.
Don't get me wrong, I fully agree with the system you are describing and how it enhances character-depth and engagement, it's just that those are still mostly homebrew systems and it's kind of impossible to say anything meaningful about how powerful tool profs are then. My main point, which originally was aimed at answering the OP's question, is that tool proffeciencies can never be too strong in 5E because if you open an officialy published 5e campaign and do ctrl-f for "tool prof" you will most likely get 5 hits at most.

The fact that it's getting band-aided with feats to make poison and potion-like snacks in Tasha's is a bit of a cop-out on WotC's part imo, because it's clear it's people would love to include more into their games.
 

But some races is still better for certain classes than other races, now it just happens that mountain dwarves and perhaps half elves are better for almost any class than any other races. So I'd say the situation is actually worse than before and certainly not any better.
Ohh yeah, those tool proffeciencies definatly got things like Magic Resistance on Yuan-ti and Satyrs beat out.

Wait. What?
 


But some races is still better for certain classes than other races, now it just happens that mountain dwarves and perhaps half elves are better for almost any class than any other races. So I'd say the situation is actually worse than before and certainly not any better.
I disagree. People are real hyped about elves and dwarves right now, but I think time will tell that they’re not even the most powerful races under this system. And again, the differences are minor enough I think this change will only increase diversity in race/class combinations.
 

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