Are Psionics Really Worth It?

[Shirt Guy John]

Well, this has been a while coming for me, and typically I'm a great fan of Psionics as a whole, but the balance issue has always bothered me. I've only been involved with low to mid level campaigns (we topped out at 9th 'fore we took a very long break, and ended up starting over), and psionics was only sparsely used - if at all -, but it seemed fine then. Looking at it all just from the book (and I mean just the core psionics, not all the other stuff), are Psions and - to a lesser extent - Psychic Warriors balanced against the other classes as a whole? How are they balanced? I feel like I just can't see exactly how they're balanced, but I feel like they are, somehow. Can anyone bestow upon me some wisdom on this issue? It's really just sort of a question that's been irking me, not really pertenant to my gaming. Thanks in advance.

 

[The Souljourner]

Psionic warrios are pretty well balanced. You have to be careful about which powers you take, but you can make some pretty good builds, and the feats are a heck of a lot of fun.

Psions are generally accepted to be horribly bad. We're talking worse than bards.

You need every stat (or at least 2-3) to be high, since each power requires a specific stat to be 10+level of power. That means that if you want to use powers of 8th level in 3 of the sections, you need 18s in three of your stats. That's a lot, even for high powered campaigns.

Adding on to that is the fact that the powers don't scale with level. The 3rd level power will always do 5d6 regardless of whether you're 5th level or 20th. Yes, you can metamagic them up, but only to a point, and in general you're not doing as well as a sorcerer of the same level.

-The Souljourner

 

[Force0]

With Mind's eye (wizards web site) or ITCK then they are more balanced, if not they are as The Souljourner said pretty bad. A couple of combo you have to watch out, but beside that they are about right with the other stuff.

 

[Spatula]

Looking at it all just from the book (and I mean just the core psionics, not all the other stuff), are Psions and - to a lesser extent - Psychic Warriors balanced against the other classes as a whole? How are they balanced?

The psychic warrior is pretty well balanced. Fully prepared for battle, a psywar is better than a fighter, but without all his powers up the psywar is definitely worse off.

A psion is very similar to a sorcerer, obviously. The difference is the use of power points instead of spell slots to determine usable powers/day. The sorcerer has a few legs up on the psion, though, because:
* Most damage-dealing spells scale up with caster level. The same is not true of psionic damage-dealing powers.
* The sorcerer knows more spells of any given level than an equal-level psion knows powers.
* The sorcerer only needs one stat (Charisma) to determine access to spell levels and saving throw DCs, the psion needs all six stats or has to sacrifice some subset of potential powers.
* If you were to convert the sorcerer to a crude spell-point system equivalent to the psionic power-point system, you can see the sorcerer is capable of casting a lot more spells per day than the psion. For example, a 10th-level sorcerer has the equivalent of 116 spell points, compared to the 10th-level psion's 43 power points. The trade-off here is that psion isn't limited by spell slots, and can use his higher-level powers as much as he wants (or until he runs out of PP).

The psion does get a few benefits, though, like the ability to use powers in armor, 2 more skill points/level, better class skills, and access to psionic feats, which are generally more powerful than normal feats. But the general consenus is that the psion, as written, is underpowered, and there's a lot of alternative rules out there to even out the imbalance (some by the PsiHB's author).

 

[Dr_Rictus]

You need every stat (or at least 2-3) to be high, since each power requires a specific stat to be 10+level of power. That means that if you want to use powers of 8th level in 3 of the sections, you need 18s in three of your stats. That's a lot, even for high powered campaigns.

Except that you don't need those 18's until you actually get access to 8th-level powers outside your primary discipline, which happens at 17th level. By that time, stat-boosting items in the +4 range are incredibly affordable, comprising less than 5% of baseline wealth per item. Show me a 17th-level psion who doesn't have a +6 in his key ability and a +4 to at least one other, and I'll show you a psion who isn't trying very hard.

So no, that's not really a lot. You really only need to have started your career with a 14 or two as your second-highest stat(s). That's not all that unusual.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Re: Re: Are Psionics Really Worth It?

The psion does get a few benefits, though, like the ability to use powers in armor, 2 more skill points/level, better class skills, and access to psionic feats, which are generally more powerful than normal feats.

One thing about this is that it's somewhat situational how useful it is to not have to use components. So it's somewhat like the ranger's favored enemy in that it's incumbent upon the DM to make sure that it's rewarding to the player.

The main advantage in my experience is that most spellcasters are pathetically easy to shut down by grappling them, and about all they can do is hope for their party to rescue them. But I've also had occasion to appreciate the spell-like abilities when plunged unexpectedly into water (no speaking), when facing creatures with sonic attacks (while safe within a silence spell that hampered me not at all), etc.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Adding on to that is the fact that the powers don't scale with level. The 3rd level power will always do 5d6 regardless of whether you're 5th level or 20th. Yes, you can metamagic them up, but only to a point, and in general you're not doing as well as a sorcerer of the same level.

This is true. But then, most classes have a hard time keeping up with sorcerers when it comes to sheer damage output.

Psions have a much better time of it if they concentrate on support spells, where it doesn't matter that they don't scale, and being able to toss off dozens of low-level stuff willy-nilly is actually pretty cool. You've got to have more of the helpful attitude of a good cleric (or bard) to enjoy psions this way, which frankly I think is something that a lot of people don't have.

But I do agree with the common sentiment that psions don't really get enough power points, given their lack of scaling powers. I don't much like Bruce Cordell's variant chart from ITCK, though, because it's strangely irregular for reasons that are not clear to me.

 

[Spatula]

One thing about this is that it's somewhat situational how useful it is to not have to use components.

Ah, I forgot about the no-components thing. Although the imporantance of that depends on how strict the DM is about such things.

Except that you don't need those 18's until you actually get access to 8th-level powers outside your primary discipline, which happens at 17th level. By that time, stat-boosting items in the +4 range are incredibly affordable, comprising less than 5% of baseline wealth per item.

Assuming the DM allows temporary ability score bonuses (like those gained from items) to count for purposes of learning new powers. The rules don't address that topic, and I personally wouldn't allow it.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Assuming the DM allows temporary ability score bonuses (like those gained from items) to count for purposes of learning new powers. The rules don't address that topic, and I personally wouldn't allow it.

Unless I'm grossly mistaken, there isn't any ability score requirement to learn powers. Just to manifest them. I can certainly accept if you don't like that, but if you would prefer to rule it differently, then you should also balance that disadvantage with some other rulings.

 

[Shirt Guy John]

Okay, all good points so far, but nothing to really swing me either way.

Psychic Warriors I have no problem with. They're powers really give them very nice options, and don't require scaling in most cases (in fact... I can't think of one that has scaling involved off the top of my head).

"Worse than Bards" is not that bad, really. Unless you're bias against bards (I was... I recovered).

The ability score requirements (I personally believe that you have to have the requisite ability score to know a power as well... it's just silliness to know powers that you can't ever even manifest on your own) are a harsh aspect of the Psionic classes, but strangely, I've felt the restrictions harder for the Psychic Warrior than the Psion. The Psion has some good power choices, and can gain great benefits by focusing in one field. He sacrifices a lot, it's true, but it's a similar (if much stronger) decision as the Wizard makes with specialization.

Power scaling is the worst aspect of psionics, in my experience. Damage powers are horribly degenerate as compared to arcane (and divine) spells of the same level. The upside of the better direct damage powers is that they are non-elemental, and affect (or are supposed to, I don't remember) objects fully. Oh yes, and the Concussion powers (which I regard as the "basic" direct damage powers) are Fort half, not Relf (unless it was changed int he Errata... I hope not), thus denying the Rogue/Monk the benefits of Evasion (but sucking worse against tanks).

Lack of components is a valuable asset that I've seen used to great effect in a few situations, and I can just imagine more (being bound and seperated from the equipment was the case that came to mind first). Of course the displays make manifesting a little less than subtle in most cases, though I can imagine that it would be hard to pinpoint who, in a crowd, had manifested a power, had you not witnessed the act.

I don't agree on the support spell item. Many of the more useful powers are range: Personal. I perfer instead to utilize the "Save or..." powers, as they are universally as good as their arcane counterparts (I think). I've always loved Telepaths for that very reason.

I guess the low number of possible powers per day (in comparison to the other restricted-knowledge classes) thing is supposed to balance out with the awesome (and unmatched) versatility of psionic manifestation. No other spellcaster can forfeit all of his low level spells in order to cast a handful of extra spells at the highest level, or conversely sacrifice a higher-level spell to cast multiple lower-level spells. Still, I think the designers put too much weight on how powerful versatility can be in a situation, especially when the psionic classes have such small lists of known powers to choose from.

And is psionic combat really useful at all? It's not too complex (I've seen much more complex home-brew systems that just lose the ease of the core mechanics), and it is neat flavor-wise, but really it's more of a burden than a boon. Has anyone ever really used psionic combat effectively in more than a very limited "psion-on-psion with noone else around" situation?

And lastly, Psionic feats, though sometimes awesome in their potential, are somewhat of an untapped resource. Many of the feats that are homebrewed even (or the ones that make it online) lack either "style" or balance, and while the core feats give awesome options (well, mostly for Psychic Warriors, 'cause Psions don't have enough feats), they just seem very... limited in their scope. Like all of the feats now, they lack more awe-inspiring high-level feats.

And what about the variable DC? Anyone like it more? Anyone actually use it (I do, but it seems like more rolling than many people would enjoy, and it adds a lot of chaos)?

Let's see... that's about everything I can think of.

Oh yeah, and the core PrCs just rock conceptually (I've never seen 'em used in a real game, though I have toyed repeatedly with the Soulknife just for kicks).