The Blue Elf
First Post
Well, its simple to use the psionic powers to use.
Are Psionics Really Worth It?
- Thread starter Shirt Guy John
- Start date
Shirt Guy John
First Post
Is this really true?
Okay, I was starting to plan out my house-rule psionics, and I was just reaching the point of adjusting power points, thinking that maybe they could just use a little tinkering, but when I decided to compare them (at 20th level) to the Specialist Wizard (by converting to so-called "spell-points", which I don't really know is an acurate system or not, but is the closest that I could manage or could care to manage in a very short period of time for rough estimation), which is what I assumed would have the closest general spellcastig ability per day, I was just stunned by the results... and I reworked them, just to check my math. Then I reworked them for a non-specialist wizard, but got a very similar result. As it turns out, the Psion isn't even a distant cousin of the Sorcerer in the number of powers per day area. Instead he lacks behind even the generalist wizard... by a lot.
Now if this was just a small numerical difference, I would simply disregard it as another innocent misconception of the imaginary "versatility" that the Psion has, but no, it's a HUGE difference. I counted 324 base spell points for the generalist wizard on a direct spell-to-points conversion. Now, this is 324 base points as opposed by the Psion's measly 183... am I the only one that didn't realize this!?! I mean it's like... well, really fricken' close to being just half of the number of powers per day as the generalist wizard has spells!
I think I'm gonna do a level-by-level breakdown of the comparison and try to figure out how the Psion's power points should be adjusted, and at what levels, to make their manifesting at least in the ballpark of their Arcane and Divine spellcasting bretheren (whose spells still scale, so no arguing that a Wizard isn't using half of those spells when he reaches that level).
Anyone got any comments on this? Anyone want to tell me that I really messed up my calculations, and it all isn't really that bad? (No really, please do! I mean... if I messed up, and/or I'm just overreacting because I don't see some other balance issue, please, for the Gods' sake, tell me! I need some sort of faith in the Psion restored...)
Okay, I was starting to plan out my house-rule psionics, and I was just reaching the point of adjusting power points, thinking that maybe they could just use a little tinkering, but when I decided to compare them (at 20th level) to the Specialist Wizard (by converting to so-called "spell-points", which I don't really know is an acurate system or not, but is the closest that I could manage or could care to manage in a very short period of time for rough estimation), which is what I assumed would have the closest general spellcastig ability per day, I was just stunned by the results... and I reworked them, just to check my math. Then I reworked them for a non-specialist wizard, but got a very similar result. As it turns out, the Psion isn't even a distant cousin of the Sorcerer in the number of powers per day area. Instead he lacks behind even the generalist wizard... by a lot.
Now if this was just a small numerical difference, I would simply disregard it as another innocent misconception of the imaginary "versatility" that the Psion has, but no, it's a HUGE difference. I counted 324 base spell points for the generalist wizard on a direct spell-to-points conversion. Now, this is 324 base points as opposed by the Psion's measly 183... am I the only one that didn't realize this!?! I mean it's like... well, really fricken' close to being just half of the number of powers per day as the generalist wizard has spells!
I think I'm gonna do a level-by-level breakdown of the comparison and try to figure out how the Psion's power points should be adjusted, and at what levels, to make their manifesting at least in the ballpark of their Arcane and Divine spellcasting bretheren (whose spells still scale, so no arguing that a Wizard isn't using half of those spells when he reaches that level).
Anyone got any comments on this? Anyone want to tell me that I really messed up my calculations, and it all isn't really that bad? (No really, please do! I mean... if I messed up, and/or I'm just overreacting because I don't see some other balance issue, please, for the Gods' sake, tell me! I need some sort of faith in the Psion restored...)
One benefit that the psion does get over the wiz/sorc is that a high score for the ability tied to the psion's primary discipline gives a straight number of bonus Power Points, that can be used for powers of any level, as opposed to bonus slots tied to particular spells levels.
But yeah, there's a reason why psions are generally thought of as underpowered.
Bruce Cordell (the author of the PsiHB) created an alternate PP progression for psions that gives them more power points per level. It can be found in the d20 products If Thoughts Could Kill and Mindscapes.
http://www.montecook.com/mpress_TCK.html
http://www.montecook.com/mpress_Mind.html
I suggest picking up Mindscapes, which also has an alternate psi combat system. It also reprints a bunch of the alternate psi rules found in ITCK, like the new psion PP progression and a power-scaling system.
But yeah, there's a reason why psions are generally thought of as underpowered.
Bruce Cordell (the author of the PsiHB) created an alternate PP progression for psions that gives them more power points per level. It can be found in the d20 products If Thoughts Could Kill and Mindscapes.
http://www.montecook.com/mpress_TCK.html
http://www.montecook.com/mpress_Mind.html
I suggest picking up Mindscapes, which also has an alternate psi combat system. It also reprints a bunch of the alternate psi rules found in ITCK, like the new psion PP progression and a power-scaling system.
Shirt Guy John
First Post
Yeah, well, while I understand that the whole being able to swap usage of lower level powers for more uses of higher level powers thing, adn the subsequent inequality of spell slots and power points, but a difference in value so high just seems well.. obscence. In my book versatility != (is that the symbol for "does not equal"?) 1/2 the potential spellcasting per day.
Shirt Guy John
First Post
Okay, by the looks of it (and truly, I thought they had more than this... I'm having like a mid-life psionics crisis here) the Psion gains enough power points at each level up to allow him to use one power of the highest level he can manifest one additional time per day. This is as opposed to all of the other core casters that typically gain the increased use of two different spell levels at a time (either their highest and their 4th highest, or their second highest and their third highest for generalist Wizards, which are the one's I'm most willing to work with now).
Wow. You realize some little previously insignificant pattern every day, don't you?
And just so you know why I specified core psionics: I'm too lazy/cheap to want to spend any more money than I have to on rulebooks, and thus I'm trying desperately to avoid purchasing Mindscapes or If Thoughts Could Kill for fear that I won't use half of the stuff in either (and believe me, I probably won't).
Wow. You realize some little previously insignificant pattern every day, don't you?
And just so you know why I specified core psionics: I'm too lazy/cheap to want to spend any more money than I have to on rulebooks, and thus I'm trying desperately to avoid purchasing Mindscapes or If Thoughts Could Kill for fear that I won't use half of the stuff in either (and believe me, I probably won't).
Darklone
Registered User
Uhm, psionics weak? As Bards???
Nope. Anyone casting without problems in armour while blindfolded and his arms tied to his back underwater and still able to open a can of whoop @§§... is not weak.
I've seen psion builts who caused 4000 points of damage with no save and psions who cured the whole group in the evening because the cleric wasted his slots on buffing without spending one pp.
This while having some nice class skills and skillpoints.
Nope. Anyone casting without problems in armour while blindfolded and his arms tied to his back underwater and still able to open a can of whoop @§§... is not weak.
I've seen psion builts who caused 4000 points of damage with no save and psions who cured the whole group in the evening because the cleric wasted his slots on buffing without spending one pp.
This while having some nice class skills and skillpoints.
I think psion and psychic warriors work really well the psionic supplements from the mind's eye at the WOTC site. The Mind's eye downloads are free! With the additional feats / powers it is possible to even create a powerful psion. Just remember that all psionic powers are usable if stilled and silenced. Your psions should run around in armor if possible.
-Psiblade
-Psiblade
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Re: Is this really true?
I think ITCK/Mindscapes got the # of power points right. Boosting power points too high will just lead to save-or-consequences headaches. Instead, I think you would be better off reducing the cost of direct-damage powers (eg via class feature or feat).
Yes, psions would have less power point equivalents, but they do have advantages such as wearing armor and not usually needing components.
It sounds like you've found some broken things - can I guess Trigger Power, Psychofeedback, and failure to read page 23 of your PsiH? No one claimed psionics was perfect, but spellcasting classes have access to lots of cheese, too. (*KoffSimulacrumKoff*)
Shirt Guy John said:
I think ITCK/Mindscapes got the # of power points right. Boosting power points too high will just lead to save-or-consequences headaches. Instead, I think you would be better off reducing the cost of direct-damage powers (eg via class feature or feat).
Yes, psions would have less power point equivalents, but they do have advantages such as wearing armor and not usually needing components.
It sounds like you've found some broken things - can I guess Trigger Power, Psychofeedback, and failure to read page 23 of your PsiH? No one claimed psionics was perfect, but spellcasting classes have access to lots of cheese, too. (*KoffSimulacrumKoff*)
