thegreatbuddha
First Post
I have heard mention of psionics being underpowered on several threads. I don't get it. i think they're just fine. Could someone please explain the rationale for the "Psionics are underpowered" theory?
Are Psionics underpowered?
- Thread starter thegreatbuddha
- Start date
FrankTrollman
First Post
OK, short of a couple of abusive combos, Psionics are like Sorcerers except:
1> They get less spells.
2> Their spell-list is shorter.
3> They are partially to completely dependent upon 6 stats instead of only 1.
Sorcerers are in turn just like Wizards with less versatility, and wizards are in turn just like Clerics who trade half their hit points, a third of their BAB, and all of their armor proficiencies, and a few spells of each level, and restrict themselves to knowing only a small fraction of their spell list, to have smaller access to a slightly different spell list.
OK. So Wizards, despite all that, are actually about on-par with Clerics because a lot of their spells are more useful than Cleric spells of similar level. This is in fact not true of Psions - so they just sort of sit around and suck.
-Frank
1> They get less spells.
2> Their spell-list is shorter.
3> They are partially to completely dependent upon 6 stats instead of only 1.
Sorcerers are in turn just like Wizards with less versatility, and wizards are in turn just like Clerics who trade half their hit points, a third of their BAB, and all of their armor proficiencies, and a few spells of each level, and restrict themselves to knowing only a small fraction of their spell list, to have smaller access to a slightly different spell list.
OK. So Wizards, despite all that, are actually about on-par with Clerics because a lot of their spells are more useful than Cleric spells of similar level. This is in fact not true of Psions - so they just sort of sit around and suck.
-Frank
thegreatbuddha
First Post
That explains things nicely.
Thanks
Thanks
silentspace
First Post
What are the abusive Psion combos? I thought the abusive combos were all for Psychic Warriors 
I'd like to know, thanks.
I'd like to know, thanks.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
There are two additional problems with the Psionicists:
(1) Most powers do not scale up by level. That hits you two ways. (1A) A "Blaster I" spell cast by a 10th level psionicist is approximately as powerful as when cast by a 1st level psionicist. The net result is that a themed character is virtually forced to pick up Blaster II, Blaster III, Blaster IV, etc., further reducing the spell list. (1B) The theorectical improved flexibility of spending PPs instead of slots never materializes.
(2) Balancewise, psionic combat is treated as if it were an advantage to the psionic classes. In actual play having monsters beat on your Stats instead of easily healed HPs is not an asset.
(1) Most powers do not scale up by level. That hits you two ways. (1A) A "Blaster I" spell cast by a 10th level psionicist is approximately as powerful as when cast by a 1st level psionicist. The net result is that a themed character is virtually forced to pick up Blaster II, Blaster III, Blaster IV, etc., further reducing the spell list. (1B) The theorectical improved flexibility of spending PPs instead of slots never materializes.
(2) Balancewise, psionic combat is treated as if it were an advantage to the psionic classes. In actual play having monsters beat on your Stats instead of easily healed HPs is not an asset.
Last edited:
FrankTrollman
First Post
Oh, you can duplicate yourself into a bunch of forms and then have your duplicates make more duplicates and then kill your intermediate forms and generate an infinite number of "you"s.silentspace said:What are the abusive Psion combos? I thought the abusive combos were all for Psychic Warriors
Or you can do that thing where you get all kinds of super juices every time you critical things - and then bust out with a bag of tricks and coup de grace your own summoned puppies with an imbued scythe.
That sort of thing. Barring things that the rules say you can do that noone will let you do - there's not much you can do with the class.
-Frank
green slime
First Post
I'm in the "they're OK" camp, but will admit that they are, in general, underpowered . They can be very weak if you don't put alot of thought into your character. More thought than you actually should have to do in order to create a valid character concept. Given that and the rule set being rather rough shod, it can be a frustrating experience.
Part of the problem is that certain disciplines are stronger than others. Telepathy is particularly strong (compared to the other disciplines), but it isn't going to be liked by all DM's. Theoretically you can easily have hordes of fans working hand and foot for you.
I disagree with the being completely edpedant on all 6 stats. Given the readily accessible stat enhancing items, this becomes much less of a problem, as well as the fact that you do not need to have 8th level powers from all disciplines. Sure it would be nice, just isn't necessary.
As written, by the PsiHB, they could do with some boosting, which most DMs do, with various flavours and D20 additions, from WotC's website, Mindscapes or If Thoughts Could Kill.
And psionic combat is a liability for psions.
Part of the problem is that certain disciplines are stronger than others. Telepathy is particularly strong (compared to the other disciplines), but it isn't going to be liked by all DM's. Theoretically you can easily have hordes of fans working hand and foot for you.
I disagree with the being completely edpedant on all 6 stats. Given the readily accessible stat enhancing items, this becomes much less of a problem, as well as the fact that you do not need to have 8th level powers from all disciplines. Sure it would be nice, just isn't necessary.
As written, by the PsiHB, they could do with some boosting, which most DMs do, with various flavours and D20 additions, from WotC's website, Mindscapes or If Thoughts Could Kill.
And psionic combat is a liability for psions.
Thanee
First Post
Depends a whole lot on what books you are using. If you use ITCK and Mindscape, they are pretty good, especially if you use the Psionics Handbook as is, with all its abusiveness (Psychofeedback anyone?).
Psions have a few advantages, like "casting" in armor, no spell components, better skills, even more flexibility than the Sorcerer. Also, they gain an extremely powerful attack form at 1st level (useable at 3rd or so)... Mind Blast (equivalent of a 5th level power, which should only be available at 10th level).
Their disadvantages are mentioned above mostly. They can - in total - "cast" less "spells" than Sorcerers for a day (altho they can "cast" more of the highest levels, if they choose to).
The non-scaling of the powers (if you use PsiHB only) is a big issue.
Bye
Thanee
Psions have a few advantages, like "casting" in armor, no spell components, better skills, even more flexibility than the Sorcerer. Also, they gain an extremely powerful attack form at 1st level (useable at 3rd or so)... Mind Blast (equivalent of a 5th level power, which should only be available at 10th level).
Their disadvantages are mentioned above mostly. They can - in total - "cast" less "spells" than Sorcerers for a day (altho they can "cast" more of the highest levels, if they choose to).
The non-scaling of the powers (if you use PsiHB only) is a big issue.
Bye
Thanee
Last edited:
Darklone
Registered User
Casting in armour, casting in Silence, many skillpoints...some of these have been mentioned.
The huge feat selection should be mentioned as well, this gave psionics in campaigns with only the core rule books plus psi handbook a big advantage.
Trigger Power feat chains allow healing without spending PPs (outside of combat) and this feat that let's you use powers as AoOs is just plain... ugly. A psion has soo many good feat choices.
The huge feat selection should be mentioned as well, this gave psionics in campaigns with only the core rule books plus psi handbook a big advantage.
Trigger Power feat chains allow healing without spending PPs (outside of combat) and this feat that let's you use powers as AoOs is just plain... ugly. A psion has soo many good feat choices.
I'm currently playing a lvl-5 psion, Sabat, who I am enjoying immensely.
I am having some difficulty in combat, but I am able to contribute. With Empathic Transfer, I can heal more damage than the cleric can do in a single round (even though I have to heal myself afterwards). We have 7 players, so it's usually not difficult for me to hang back from combat if I have to (although I never do
). I can use a mace and shield without trouble (and since it's a mithral shield, I don't have to worry about the armor check penalty). I'm a Shaper, so I can manifest Astral Construct II to fight for me if need be. And, once I hit 6th lvl, I'll be able to create tatoos for the party, which are much nicer than potions (no weight, no vial to destroy).
I already have plans for large damage powers. First of all, Metaphysical Weapon/Telekinesis can be a nasty combo. Whoever wrote Telekinesis must have been asleep at the wheel, since they never specified a limit to the number of items that could be launched. However, I worked out a house rule with my DM, and he's limiting the number of objects in the violent thrust to be equal to the psion's Intelligence score. So, manifest Metaphysical Weapon on 20 crossbow bolts (which do 1d3 dmg as a melee weapon), then toss them at a target for a potential of 20d3 + 60 dmg on a single target. KABOOM!
Greater Biocurrent is a great damage power, too. And, I'm working on a Telekinetic Maelstrom power, which will do AoE dmg over several rounds (subject to Concentration checks), so in the long run I doubt I'll feel underpowered.
I am having some difficulty in combat, but I am able to contribute. With Empathic Transfer, I can heal more damage than the cleric can do in a single round (even though I have to heal myself afterwards). We have 7 players, so it's usually not difficult for me to hang back from combat if I have to (although I never do
). I can use a mace and shield without trouble (and since it's a mithral shield, I don't have to worry about the armor check penalty). I'm a Shaper, so I can manifest Astral Construct II to fight for me if need be. And, once I hit 6th lvl, I'll be able to create tatoos for the party, which are much nicer than potions (no weight, no vial to destroy).I already have plans for large damage powers. First of all, Metaphysical Weapon/Telekinesis can be a nasty combo. Whoever wrote Telekinesis must have been asleep at the wheel, since they never specified a limit to the number of items that could be launched. However, I worked out a house rule with my DM, and he's limiting the number of objects in the violent thrust to be equal to the psion's Intelligence score. So, manifest Metaphysical Weapon on 20 crossbow bolts (which do 1d3 dmg as a melee weapon), then toss them at a target for a potential of 20d3 + 60 dmg on a single target. KABOOM!
Greater Biocurrent is a great damage power, too. And, I'm working on a Telekinetic Maelstrom power, which will do AoE dmg over several rounds (subject to Concentration checks), so in the long run I doubt I'll feel underpowered.
Similar Threads
