Are Rituals Vaporware?

[Wolfspider]

I can use my changed position in the world due to having taken up a paragon path to kill more monsters for great justice, but that doesn't mean it's designed for killing things.

I guess we'll have to judge this claim by comparing how much space is devoted to role-playing type information and scenarious within each paragon path description with how much space describes directly combat-related powers and such.

 

[Leatherhead]

I can use my changed position in the world due to having taken up a paragon path to kill more monsters for great justice, but that doesn't mean it's designed for killing things.

The fact that all classes are balanced with roles for combat now contradicts your statement.

 

[Jack99]

So, regarding rituals. Do you guys think we will see (as 4e "evolves") Combat Rituals, meaning rituals that improve players in combat, just like the "good old buffs", as they are (seem to be) gone completely from DND.

I could easily imagine something like a Bless Ally Ritual:
Spend X money and Y time performing the ritual, granting your allies present (up to Z number) a +1(or more) ritual bonus for the day to your tohit rolls.

Or do you think introducing such rituals would break the game all over again?

 

[FourthBear]

I remain very optimistic about the role of rituals in 4e to fill in many valuable roles in 4e. However, I am concerned that people, both pro and con, have unrealistically high expectations of the rules for rituals. I am expecting that rituals will primarily be represented by specific examples in the PH and the DMG will have a discussion on creating campaign appropriate new rituals. However, I don't expect any kind of broad, all encompassing guidelines that delineate how to create and balance any kind of ritual that the human mind can conceive. Even the HERO RPG can't manage that in a book the size of a phone directory.

I think that 3e made a stab at a similarly broad system to create magic items, attempting to leverage the spell system. It showed several major problems with such attempts, I think. Context in abilities is highly important. A ritual that allows you to instantly be whisked from the Forest of Dreams to the Feywild's Glass Spires may be no problem, but that doesn't mean that a similar ritual that allows you to teleport into the lair of your greatest enemy should be balanced in a similar way. They both may involve teleportation, but just word-replace power building doesn't capture that all locations don't have the same role in a campaign.

I agree with Lurks-No-More's assessment of a few of the main roles that I see rituals filling. I also see them used to replicate the plot-device magic that is found throughout both the inspirational fiction for D&D and that fills most of the campaigns and adventures in D&D itself. There are countless examples where in D&D modules and campaign settings that the authors simply ignore the by-the-book abilities of the monsters, NPCs and such to create the kind of fantastic effects in fiction. By encouraging specific rituals with limitations and requirements that would not be appropriate for a standardized PC ability, I think it finally acknowledges that there are many fantastic things that are only uncomfortably crammed into everything that is appropriate for a PC of a given level.

I hope that rituals are simply led by good examples, some solid guidelines and warnings about what may cause problems. I certainly don't expect some kind of uber-system that can perfectly balance Phantom Steed, a sacrificial rite that will doom the world if completed, another that finds the perfect mate for the Queen and yet another that curses a village with infertility.

 

[hong]

The fact that all classes are balanced with roles for combat now contradicts your statement.

The fact that all classes have ways to contribute out of combat now supports my statement.

 

[Leatherhead]

The fact that all classes have ways to contribute out of combat now supports my statement.

Um, no.

They were made with roles for combat by the people who designed the game. This makes them, at least in part, quite literally designed for killing things.

That doesn't preclude them from other uses of course.

 

[Lizard]

I think that 3e made a stab at a similarly broad system to create magic items, attempting to leverage the spell system. It showed several major problems with such attempts, I think. Context in abilities is highly important. A ritual that allows you to instantly be whisked from the Forest of Dreams to the Feywild's Glass Spires may be no problem, but that doesn't mean that a similar ritual that allows you to teleport into the lair of your greatest enemy should be balanced in a similar way. They both may involve teleportation, but just word-replace power building doesn't capture that all locations don't have the same role in a campaign.


.

So, the rules for ritual design for, say, teleportation should not include things like "distance" or "magical defenses" or "knowledge of location", but, instead, "does the DM want you to teleport here or not"?

Discussion between two NPC wizards:
"Care to head to the Wavelap beach for the summer?"
"No, it's too long a ride."
"Pshaw! I know the Ritual Of The Extended Step."
"You're not up on the news. Vandemeer Bloodheart has a lair near there."
"So? He's not interested in us, he's all on about the Stone That Is An Egg or some-such."
"Yes, but that means he's got a bunch of heroes trying to stop him. So the beach is off limits as long as it's a vital plot location."
"Damn! Hmm. How about Blue Heron Lake?"
"Currently being used by a necromantic cult. Same problem."
"Blasted heroes..."

 

[Bandreus]

So, regarding rituals. Do you guys think we will see (as 4e "evolves") Combat Rituals, meaning rituals that improve players in combat, just like the "good old buffs", as they are (seem to be) gone completely from DND.

I could easily imagine something like a Bless Ally Ritual:
Spend X money and Y time performing the ritual, granting your allies present (up to Z number) a +1(or more) ritual bonus for the day to your tohit rolls.

Or do you think introducing such rituals would break the game all over again?

Buffing will hardly be achieved via rituals. We allready saw a lot of powers wich grant bonus to AC, saves, attack among other effects. Be sure a lot of cleric's preyers (other classes's powers too, the bard comes to mind) will be capable of granting all sort of buffs, for a duration of 1 round or either the whole encounter.

Maybe some ritual could end up provide similar results, at one point, but since buffing is strongly combat related it's something powers/feats will take care of.

 

[FourthBear]

So, the rules for ritual design for, say, teleportation should not include things like "distance" or "magical defenses" or "knowledge of location", but, instead, "does the DM want you to teleport here or not"?

I think it's a big mistake to grant broad, wide powers like Teleport without Error, then in the next bit declare all truly interesting areas off limits because of wards, mysterious magical fields and the like. I find it far more damaging to verisimilitude to have every major villain either have his lairs undiscoverable, teleportation warded or have some contrived explanation why *this* time the PCs teleportation powers won't allow them to simply pop in and ambush the enemy. Or worse, vice versa: why don't the bad guys (who most frequently *do* have access to the same ubiquitous and universal scrying and teleportation powers) constantly ambush the PCs? You can always give out teleportation wards and magical items to every party at mid-to-high levels to prevent that (although I'll note they don't exist in the core rules for 3e with anywhere near the portability and area that would be required for any reasonably mobile adventuring party). But if you're just going to turn around and nerf the powers with counter-powers, why not skip the middleman and simply come up with less abusable powers in the first place?

Further, such broad powers aren't even very true to the vast majority of the genre inspiration for D&D. Specific instances of powers can be far easier to control than simply granting the keys to the kingdom. I think that portal based and teleportation rituals to specified locations is a much wiser choice than: you get a ritual that teleports you anywhere your can name. The latter is just setting expectations up to be dashed.

 

[Waneta]

So if there's a feat that grants the ability to use rituals, and wizards and clerics automatically get this feat, that implies that other classes are able to take the feat. I wonder if the other classes that can take it are restricted to spellcasters (paladins, warlocks), or if martial characters can take it too. Or could there even be martial rituals such as extended training?