Are scrolls unbalancing?

[Markn]

Does anyone else find that with the wealth that is generated (using the DMG as guildelines for what PC's should have at each level) that spellcasters create massive amounts of scrolls? Effectively, this leaves spellcasters was selections and amounts of twice the daily limit or even more. Do you think this affects the power level of spellcasting classes too much?

Also, along the same lines, from what I can tell, there is no limit to the number of spells that someone can put onto a scroll. You could have 20 copies of the same spell on one scroll instead of making 20 scrolls with one spell which drastically reduces the creation time of the scrolls.

Thoughts & opinions?

 

[Anguirus]

It takes the same amount of creation time to get every scroll spell ready to use as an item, even of the spells are technically on the same piece of parchment. At least, that's my understanding. The only reason to scribe a ton of spells onto the same scroll is so that you have to spend fewer move actions drawing scrolls.

 

[DogBackward]

Scrolls can only be used once, so there's really not a problem. Sure, they could more than double their spells per day... for one day, for a very large chunk of money. I see no real problem there. As for multiple spells on a scroll, I would say that each <i>spell</i> takes one day to scribe, rather than each scroll. And a scroll with 20 spells on it would be pretty long and unwieldy, and hard to wrap up and store. I'd say that it'd take a full round action just to get the scroll open to the specific spell you want. I figure 3-5 is the most efficient number of spells for a scroll, at the most.

 

[stonegod]

Craft a scroll cost's exactly half of what it would to buy it direct. And since all items (except art and gems) are sold by PCs at half their market price, a wizard would not be able to make any money making scrolls.

Creating scrolls, especially for wizards, is a large part of their balancing element. Having rarely needed by extremely useful scrolls on hand is a boon to utility casters like wizards. This is balanced by money cost and XP cost. Scrolls are also not as useful as raw spells, as their caster level is fixed at creation (so if you create a scroll at its earliest possible level, it does not grow in power like a memorized version of that spell). They also require two actions to use (one to get out, then one to cast, eliminating a move action).

The cost and time to create a scroll is going to be the same either way except for rounding---yes, combining multiple spells in one scroll will be faster due to the rounding up of crafting time. But, remember, scribing the scroll uses up a spell slot during crafting---so that wizard will need 20 spell slots of the appropriate or higher level to scribe.

 

[Markn]

It takes the same amount of creation time to get every scroll spell ready to use as an item, even of the spells are technically on the same piece of parchment. At least, that's my understanding. The only reason to scribe a ton of spells onto the same scroll is so that you have to spend fewer move actions drawing scrolls.

Here is the feat.

SCRIBE SCROLL [ITEM CREATION]
Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.
Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a scroll is its spell level x its caster level x 25 gp. To scribe a scroll, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price.
Any scroll that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when scribing the scroll.

I suppose the literal reading of this feat means that you can only put 1 spell on a scroll. However, that does not explain the fact that you can find scrolls with more than one spell on it. The feat clearly says that it takes 1 day to scribe PER SCROLL for each 1000gp in its base price. It is therefore, not based on the spell(s) Logically, it would take quite a few low level spells to reach 1000gp on one scroll and therefore would reduce the creation time if you are making only 1 scroll. At least that is the conclusion I have come to anyways.

 

[Anguirus]

I think the issue is that a physical scroll can simply have more than one "scroll" on it. Think of it like adding properties to a weapon. You don't get to pay less the more you add to one sword.

 

[Markn]

I think the issue is that a physical scroll can simply have more than one "scroll" on it. Think of it like adding properties to a weapon. You don't get to pay less the more you add to one sword.

I'm not saying the cost is any less. Just the time it takes to make it since you are only making 1 scroll. Should it take an extra day just to write 1 more spell on the scroll? Most of the scroll prep work is done during the preparation of the original spell scribing. Should it take longer because the scroll is slightly longer? By the same token, if your writing 20 spells onto it I can see it taking some time longer. Should it be the full amount? IMHO, no.

 

[Markn]

Creating scrolls, especially for wizards, is a large part of their balancing element. Having rarely needed by extremely useful scrolls on hand is a boon to utility casters like wizards. This is balanced by money cost and XP cost. Scrolls are also not as useful as raw spells, as their caster level is fixed at creation (so if you create a scroll at its earliest possible level, it does not grow in power like a memorized version of that spell). They also require two actions to use (one to get out, then one to cast, eliminating a move action).

The cost and time to create a scroll is going to be the same either way except for rounding---yes, combining multiple spells in one scroll will be faster due to the rounding up of crafting time. But, remember, scribing the scroll uses up a spell slot during crafting---so that wizard will need 20 spell slots of the appropriate or higher level to scribe.

These are all good points. I guess part of my issue is that it seems like the cost is so low in terms of wealth and XP spent that those are not major limiting factors. A wizard could have a ton of scrolls if he so wished instead of purchasing magic items (like robes, cloaks, rods, etc). I guess they are limited by their creation level but if I am a wizard and I scribe Fireball at 6th level, it will be used at not too long afterward. Utility spells, in my experience, are the ones that sit around and don't get used.

As for casting spells and using up slots, most of my campaigns have item creation stuff happening in between adventures where it makes no difference to use 5 spell slots to have the same spell.

 

[Deset Gled]

The debate about how many spells you can put on a scroll has been around as long as 3.x. It's really a separate issue from the "wealth generation" issue.

As to scrolls being unbalancing: no. They are cost consuming to buy, and are also time consuming and XP consuming to make. More than enough to balance them. Wands and staffs are almost always a better deal when they're available. The fact that they use their own caster level makes them almost useless for attack spells unless you spend ungodly amounts of cash. The biggest use that I see for scrolls is so PCs can always have a copy of a utility spell around without wasting a slot on it every day.

Also, wealth of a wizard is never an issue if you pay attention to the cost of scribing spells in a spellbook. Once you get to a high enough level to have a Boccob's Blessed Book, things become a lot easier. But around that time your wizard is probably also going to need to worry about keeping multiples copies of their spellbook. Life still won't be cheap. No other class requires as much money to be able to perform their most basic class abilities.

Scrolls are absolutely necessary for a sorcerer, due to the low number of spells known. The extreme number of new spells available to a wizard in the multitude of splatbooks makes it even more important for a sorcerer to keep a library of scrolls to come anywhere near the utility of a wizard.

 

[Quartz]

Does anyone else find that with the wealth that is generated (using the DMG as guildelines for what PC's should have at each level) that spellcasters create massive amounts of scrolls?

They're supposed to have massive amounts of scrolls. Potions too. But don't forget the XP component: if you're generating a 10th level wizard, he'll actually be 9th level once you dock the XP used in creating the items.