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Are +skill items overpowered?
- Thread starter Mordeth
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kreynolds
First Post
Crothian said:
True. But in that case, only an idiot, or someone with 500 hit points, would stick around long enough for another attack to come their way.
A dragon isn't stupid enough to stick around and get itself killed. Like a dragon, I'm not stupid enough to fight an invisible/hidden sneak attacker.
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Crothian
First Post
kreynolds said:
True. But in that case, only an idiot, or someone with 500 hit points, would stick around long enough for another attack to come their way.
A dragon isn't stupid enough to stick around and get itself killed. Like a dragon, I'm not stupid enough to fight an invisible/hidden sneak attacker.
WEll, might be hard to choose a good hiding place or running direction if you don't know where the sniper is. I'm not saying it isn't defeatible, it's just the best use of skills in combat.
Well, that's not true, +30 iajutsu or whatever that stupid skill from OA is the most powerful use of a skill in combat, but my opinion on that skill is not the least bit positive to begin with .
Taloras
First Post
Hmmm...id say sometimes they are. My rogue has a lens of detection (+10 to search) and 14 ranks in search. just taking 10 on anything, he gets a 34, enough to find almost anything at his level (10). He also has lockpicks that give him a +4.(with his dex and his ranks, he now has a +20 to open lock, +18 to disable device). Does this make him overpowered? not really, as we dont find too many traps now. Sure, he can find just about anything,but when there is nothing there.....
So you find everything hidden...if it was impossible to find before, it was the same as not existing. I don't see the point in placing things that cannot be found unless I thought at some later date when they had a search bonus item they would come back and take a second look. Is it so bad to jusify the rogue's existence by allowing him to find and disarm a bunch of traps that he can point to and say he contributed something?
Pick locks allows some conserving of knock spells or gives the Barbarian a rest from destroying all the doors.
Neverwinter nights gives some insight into the value of skills and the meaning of bonuses. Sometimes if you can see a trap, you don't need to disarm it. Sometimes you need to disarm it but you can't and just suck up the damage. If you can't unlock it, you can always destroy it given enough time. It converts game time to real time so speedy resolution is more of a tangible benefit but with enough time (going and hiring the thief and bringing him with you) anything can be overcome.
You are reducing the damage you take from traps but increasing the damage you take from monsters. There is a balance to everything and depending on the ratio of traps vs monsters lies the answer to the greater benefit. Maybe just the existence of less traps is a benefit since you would have found them anyway. Its a sort of metagaming at that point.
Having a +1 weapon allows your fighter to kill those things with +1 DR. His items allow him to better do his job and your items help you do yours. As your items get better you can find what you are looking for with progressively less time. Instead of spending 2 hours searching a room, you can do it in 6 minutes with the same results. Spending forever searching everything strains credibility but without the bonus that is what ends up happening.
On another note:
The shot/hide thing doesn't mean that someone has "no idea" where an attack came from. It means they cannot directly target you and have only a vague idea. If you shoot from the same spot and they are actively searching for you then they will have a better than vague idea and immediately rain fiery death upon your general vicinity. If no fiery death is available, faery fire will do in a pinch.
Lastly:
I don't think dragons can be hidden from and have unearthly spot scores even if they could. They have blindsight that extends staggering distances.
Pick locks allows some conserving of knock spells or gives the Barbarian a rest from destroying all the doors.
Neverwinter nights gives some insight into the value of skills and the meaning of bonuses. Sometimes if you can see a trap, you don't need to disarm it. Sometimes you need to disarm it but you can't and just suck up the damage. If you can't unlock it, you can always destroy it given enough time. It converts game time to real time so speedy resolution is more of a tangible benefit but with enough time (going and hiring the thief and bringing him with you) anything can be overcome.
You are reducing the damage you take from traps but increasing the damage you take from monsters. There is a balance to everything and depending on the ratio of traps vs monsters lies the answer to the greater benefit. Maybe just the existence of less traps is a benefit since you would have found them anyway. Its a sort of metagaming at that point.
Having a +1 weapon allows your fighter to kill those things with +1 DR. His items allow him to better do his job and your items help you do yours. As your items get better you can find what you are looking for with progressively less time. Instead of spending 2 hours searching a room, you can do it in 6 minutes with the same results. Spending forever searching everything strains credibility but without the bonus that is what ends up happening.
On another note:
The shot/hide thing doesn't mean that someone has "no idea" where an attack came from. It means they cannot directly target you and have only a vague idea. If you shoot from the same spot and they are actively searching for you then they will have a better than vague idea and immediately rain fiery death upon your general vicinity. If no fiery death is available, faery fire will do in a pinch.
Lastly:
I don't think dragons can be hidden from and have unearthly spot scores even if they could. They have blindsight that extends staggering distances.
Yet again we find people whining about things that are "too powerful." This time it is skill boost items.... typical.
For the record, I allow all skill boosting items including use magic device, bluff, diplomacy and all others. And I don't have any balance problems with it. Remember that most skills are opposed by other skills.
Regarding the Use Magic Device items, it is well within the scope of "game balance" that mid to high level characters should have access to some magic. Even paladins and rangers gain low level spell use. rogues, if they want to spend the money on a UMD item, should be able to. They will still have to spend more money on some magic devices to use.
If you let rogues have UMD items, what will go so wrong with your precious "game balance?" Oh no, the rogue might spend 4,500 gp on a wand of Cat's Grace!!
...
Please. By the time a character has the 1000's of gp to spend on these sorts of items, it is high time that they have such items anyway. That's game balance.
For the record, I allow all skill boosting items including use magic device, bluff, diplomacy and all others. And I don't have any balance problems with it. Remember that most skills are opposed by other skills.
Regarding the Use Magic Device items, it is well within the scope of "game balance" that mid to high level characters should have access to some magic. Even paladins and rangers gain low level spell use. rogues, if they want to spend the money on a UMD item, should be able to. They will still have to spend more money on some magic devices to use.
If you let rogues have UMD items, what will go so wrong with your precious "game balance?" Oh no, the rogue might spend 4,500 gp on a wand of Cat's Grace!!
...Please. By the time a character has the 1000's of gp to spend on these sorts of items, it is high time that they have such items anyway. That's game balance.
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Henry
Autoexreginated
To me, there are some skills that really shouldn't be boostable - particularly those whose effect would depend on altering another person's perceptions, such as diplomacy or bluff, or for which something permanent is created or gained out of the skill. such as craft and profession checks.
In fact, a better way to phrase it is I don't see a problem with skill-altering devices that are based on physical attributes (STR, DEX, and CON) but I do see a problem with items based on mental attributes (INT, WIS, and CHA). I might even lump Wisdom in the first group, barring any obvious abusive skills.
Generally, I stick only with the items allowed in the DMG, and disallow new types of skill-boosting items to be created, just for this very reason.
In fact, a better way to phrase it is I don't see a problem with skill-altering devices that are based on physical attributes (STR, DEX, and CON) but I do see a problem with items based on mental attributes (INT, WIS, and CHA). I might even lump Wisdom in the first group, barring any obvious abusive skills.
Generally, I stick only with the items allowed in the DMG, and disallow new types of skill-boosting items to be created, just for this very reason.
Henry
Autoexreginated
BMF said:If you let rogues have UMD items, what will go so wrong with your precious "game balance?" Oh no, the rogue might spend 4,500 gp on a wand of Cat's Grace!!
Please. By the time a character has the 1000's of gp to spend on these sorts of items, it is high time that they have such items anyway. That's game balance.
...Except that Cat's Grace gives a limited boost, and has a limited lifespan. A ring of +30 Diplomacy is forever.
That, and it's hard for me to see every diplomat in the world with a +30 diplomacy ring just to counter each other.
