Are +skill items overpowered?

[kreynolds]

To me, there are some skills that really shouldn't be boostable - particularly those whose effect would depend on altering another person's perceptions, such as diplomacy or bluff, or for which something permanent is created or gained out of the skill. such as craft and profession checks.

Alterting perceptions. Like Charm Person, Command, or Suggestion? Yeah, I can see how magic shouldn't be able to alter perceptions. Something permanent created. Like Fabricate? Yeah, I can see how magic shouldn't make permanent things out of nothing.

 

[Johno]

My present complaint about the skill items are two-fold:

1. The non-Epic cap placed at +30.

I have only be able to find one item in the core rules that grants +30, the ring of jump. But the jump skill is a bit special. All the other skill items I found in the DMG capped at 15. I found something in the PsiHb which was at +20. But +15 appears to be a more appropriate "cap", given the precedence in the DMG.

A +30 item grants a bonus equivalent to what a 27th level character has accumulated in ranks.

2. The price. Bonus^2 * 20 gp.

It is rediculously low. A +10 item costs 2,000 gp. A teen-level character can afford a dozen for only what amounts to loose change.

This cheapens one of the main benefits of the rogue player.

It also means that the ONLY reason to take ranks in a skill, aside from the DM robbing the players blind, is to qualify for a PrC.

As a side note there are few spells in the PHB that grant bonuses to specific skills. Alter Self, Change Self, Animate Rope, Veil, Shapechange...and Jump.

Those spells grant +10 at most (apart from Jump). I believe this was on purpose. The purpose being NOT to cheapen the gaming experience for the rogue player. There are other spells that grant a very low bonus to many skills, for a short period of time.

If your players are only using one or two item-skill-boosters each, you probably won't notice any problem. The problem arises when a player decides to place a moderate investment in these very cheap articles, and amasses a large number of them. Probably won't even come up in many games. But I'd rather prempt it in my game. YMMV

 

[Tzarevitch]

I just cap all non-epic skill items at +10. To make a skill item you must have the skill in question and the nost powerful one you can make is equal to 1/2 your total ranks in the skill (max of +10 for non-epic).

Skill items do cause problems if you allow PCs to build ones with +30 ranks whenever they can afford them. +30 spot items or +30 bluff items (among others) rapidly torpedo the campaign at anything short of very high levels.

Tzarevitch

 

[Xarlen]

Also, not to sound like a munchkin, but they also help with certain character concepts that would be *hard* to achieve, otherwise.

For example, a rogue/paladin. Batman.

Boots of Elvenkind, Cloak of Elvenkind, and a Hat of Disguise.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I don't have a problem with any of the skill boosting items in the books. Even Boots of Elvenkind/Cloak of Elvenkind/Robe of Blending/Silent Mithril Chain Shirt of Shadow combos can be dealt with by enforcing the "you need cover"/no hiding in plain sight or while observed rules.

However, as even the DMG warns, the formulae in the book for determining the price of custom magic items won't work for all items. Personally, I would never allow a permanent +30 Use Magic Device, Bluff, Diplomacy, or Forgery item into my campaign without the same consideration I would grant an artifact. There's a reason that the circlet of persuasion only grants +2 to each of those skills.

As a DM, I think that the bluff skill gets out of hand quickly enough without any skill bonusses (considering that only rogues and bards have sense motive as a class skill and only clerics have enough wisdom to be any good at it with cross class ranks). If the DM doesn't strictly enforce the circumstance modifiers to bluff (and rule that certain bluffs automatically fail because the PC got some bit of info wrong--"I'm on a mission for your master, Darth Malicious, stand aside stupid storm trooper grunt"), the game is quickly reduced to a boring exercise in which the player tells an outrageously ridiculous lie and the DM fails his NPC's sense motive check and lets the PC do whatever he wants (PC: "But the queen told me I should take her crown jewels for safekeeping; I'm with MI5 you know, you can trust me to work in the interests of the crown" Guard "Hmm, well, that sounds believable. OK. Would you like some help with the Star of India?")

 

[Shallown]

We have established an unofficial cap of +10 to skills with items in our local campaigns. There are some small exceptions such as the ring of jump. Exclusive skills like use magic device cost is tripled.

So far that hasn't unhinged the game but it does greatly increase the cahnces of a rogue scout of surviving while scouting. Hides in the mid 20's will keep you alive and well.

Later

 

[Petrosian]

Is the complaint that using the itme sin the books skill boosters cause problems?

i haven't seen it.

The ring of jumping, like the jump spell, has not invaded the rogue's territory at all. The best jumpers in my game are the fighters. high strength, little else to spend skills on.

meanwhile the rogue in his cloak and boots of elvenkind and a maxed hide/silent skill pair is not complaining about the official skill booster items at all.

Is the complaint that a Gm can allow CUSTOM items into his campaign that will cause problems with the flavor of the second being skill booster items?

if so, isn't that like the old "doctor, it hurts when i raise my arm like so" bit where the answer is... "then don't do that."

If a custom item that grants +314159 to craft basketweaving is goping to cause trouble in your campaign, don't allow that CUSTOM item in.

It should not take a rocket scientist to realize that not all skills are created equal. A ring that allows you +10 to tumble is going to have a much more noticebale COMBAT impact than a ring that give you 5 languages. The former is a power up (increases the magnitude, the impact in one area), the latter is a power out (expanding your set.)

its up to the Gm to balance things out. if he sees a CUSTOM item as potentially damaging, he should not allow it in unless there is good control over it. that is just common sense.

 

[Mortaneus]

The real problem skills, as I see it, are move silently and hide. Often, it's next to impossible for anyone to even get spot/listen totals even close to the totals monks, rangers, and rogues can get on these skills, when using the proper magic items.

The problem gets REALLY serious when the sneak in question is a shadowdancer. They're practically unspottable.

 

[Johno]

Is the complaint that using the itme sin the books skill boosters cause problems?

i haven't seen it.

The ring of jumping, like the jump spell, has not invaded the rogue's territory at all. The best jumpers in my game are the fighters. high strength, little else to spend skills on.

meanwhile the rogue in his cloak and boots of elvenkind and a maxed hide/silent skill pair is not complaining about the official skill booster items at all.

Is the complaint that a Gm can allow CUSTOM items into his campaign that will cause problems with the flavor of the second being skill booster items?

if so, isn't that like the old "doctor, it hurts when i raise my arm like so" bit where the answer is... "then don't do that."

If a custom item that grants +314159 to craft basketweaving is goping to cause trouble in your campaign, don't allow that CUSTOM item in.

It should not take a rocket scientist to realize that not all skills are created equal. A ring that allows you +10 to tumble is going to have a much more noticebale COMBAT impact than a ring that give you 5 languages. The former is a power up (increases the magnitude, the impact in one area), the latter is a power out (expanding your set.)

its up to the Gm to balance things out. if he sees a CUSTOM item as potentially damaging, he should not allow it in unless there is good control over it. that is just common sense.

Petrosian, I don't care if all skills aren't equal. That is the least of my worries. +10 to Spot or Basket weaving, I don't care. IF the PLAYER decides to invest heavily by placing skill points Basket Weaving, should his investment be negated because someone thinks it is cool and buys a ring for 2000gp?

I care about having to explain to players that when it comes magic items that grant skill bonuses the GUIDELINES are about as useful as my grandmother's glasses... She is DEAD.

The complaint isn't about the presence of the guidelines, nor about the inability of DM's to say yes/no to players. The complaint is about the lack of thought put into the item-skill-bonus guidelines, as it is at present.

The fact that it so EASY to abuse, is a point against the present guidelines, for this set of magical items we are discussing. Try abusing the rules for crafting arms and armour.

There are apparently at least a few people who agree with me, or we wouldn't have this discussion.

Add that to the fact that the ELH talks about "enhancement bonus", that there are items that grant circumstance bonus and others that grant competence bonus and it makes for a very sloppy rule set, compared to the attention given to other parts of the item creation rules.

 

[Petrosian]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Petrosian, I don't care if all skills aren't equal. That is the least of my worries.

IF one were to decide that custom skill booster were readily available, i would think that would be a serious concern. Oh well.

+10 to Spot or Basket weaving, I don't care. IF the PLAYER decides to invest heavily by placing skill points Basket Weaving, should his investment be negated because someone thinks it is cool and buys a ring for 2000gp?

No ring of basket weaving or even spot exists in the DMg or core books.

So as far as i can tell, IF you have a problem with those, it is one of YOUR own making, right?

I care about having to explain to players that when it comes magic items that grant skill bonuses the GUIDELINES are about as useful as my grandmother's glasses... She is DEAD.

The guidelines for cost DO NOT count for things like "this trumps the party basket weaving rogue" and they never could.

Thats why they are PRICING GUIDELINES and not PERMISSION GUIDELINES.

Nothing in that chart says "you should allow rings of +10 basketweaving"... they merely give you a beginning baseline cost approximation for use IF, and they mean IF, you have already decided "my campaign should have a +10 basketweaving ring."

So what you should be explaining to your players is not anything to do with cost, but rather the PERMISSION, the "why i think this item is fine for my campaign" or "why i think this item is not fine for my campaign" decision.

The complaint isn't about the presence of the guidelines, nor about the inability of DM's to say yes/no to players. The complaint is about the lack of thought put into the item-skill-bonus guidelines, as it is at present.

Your complaint is that a +X skill item might well tromp all over the PC who chse to invest skills in X. That is not a cost issue at all. That is a campaign issue. I can see where a ring of thievery which gave +19 to open locks and disable device might well annoy the party rogue when the cleric started upstaging him.

Arguably, if the party did not have a rogue, then the ring would enable the cleric to try and fulfill some of his role, and thus it could enhance playability.

Neither of these oppositie sides of the coin have anything to do with price, which is all that guideline chart is about.

The fact that it so EASY to abuse, is a point against the present guidelines, for this set of magical items we are discussing. Try abusing the rules for crafting arms and armour.

Its not easy to abuse at all. There is not one PERMISSIVE statement in there. These are for PRICING items the Gm has decided he will allow. Even at that WI are specifically mentioned as not following the guidelines well and requiring analysis beyond the math.

IF the Gm decides a ring of +20 to skill X is OK for his game, its his problem, not the chart that gave him a ballpark figure for estimating cost.

There are apparently at least a few people who agree with me, or we wouldn't have this discussion.

Add that to the fact that the ELH talks about "enhancement bonus", that there are items that grant circumstance bonus and others that grant competence bonus and it makes for a very sloppy rule set, compared to the attention given to other parts of the item creation rules.

actually i have thought the "bonus type" thingy went well, allowing you to control the stacking elements as you see fit.

Of course, no rule set can prevent a lazy or inexperienced GM from allowing a CUSTOM built item into his campaign that later causes trouble.

But, since the creation of custom items is ENTIRELY in the GMs hands, there is little the rules could do.

No rule in the books can stop me from allowing a broach of protection from all magical attacks and then pricing it at 50 gold.

Nor can any rule prevent you from allowing a +30 spellcraft ring to disrupt your games.