Are spell DC's too low?

[Felon]

It depends on whether the DM molly coddles the players or not. If the DM doesn't and consistently challenge the PCs with appropriate CR monsters then the wiz/sorcs players might as well retire their characters and start another character.

Oh, that's bullcrap. Mages have to know what they're doing and pick effective combinations of spells. If you pick a bunch of evocation spells that allow reflex saves, then of course the monsters with good reflex saves and SR will be a problem. The right tool for the right job, not one tool for every job.

However if your DM goes out of his way to ensure that his campaign ideas are tailored to wiz/sorc weaknesses then you'll get the encounters with monsters that are half the wiz/sorcs' level so that the wiz/sorc can feel useful with their almost certain probability (50%) that their spells will have minor effects on the monsters before they're killed.

I just want to point out that the laws of probability must have undergone some major revisions if a 50% chance of anything represents an "almost certain probability". In fact, I was pretty strongly under the impression that 50/50 odds represented the apex of improbability.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I've not had a problem with the DCs... but I've seen casters get frustrated.

IME, the big problem is with evocations - some people feel that area of effect direct damage stuff can completely fry anything. Seen a couple of (generally inexperienced) casters load up with that and throw it around in every fight. Then they get really disheartened when they do almost nothing to the BBEGs. Figure those spells are great at what they're intended to do - fry large groups of weak & low ref save opponents.

In other words, like people have already said it's a case of picking the right spells for the right targets.

NB, I can be pretty certain that a CR+4/+5 monster is going to make most saves, assuming I can get through any SR it might have. It's why no SR/no save spells are nice - walls, fogs and the like. Buffs are even better.

 

[Thanee]

We have changed Spell Focus to give +2 DC (and banned Greater Spell Focus... basically we merged them together), because while the DCs are ok, it's really too much asked to spend two feats to give that benefit to a single school. The +4 from the 3.0 GSF was too much, but the +2 from one feat is certainly ok.

I've seen many others do this as well.

All in all the spell DCs are reasonable. Saves are usually not overly high, if you take the monsters straight from the MM and don't buff them up like crazy or give them huge equipment bonuses.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Felon]

One major reason for the change to Spell Focus hasn't been mentioned. Giving a +2 to one school's save DC's also created a gulf between that school and the other. It proved a major disincentive to casting spells from any other schools.

 

[Thanee]

Huh?

You can have +2 to the DC under the 3.5 rules, it just costs two feats.
And isn't it kinda the point of Spell Focus to focus in one school?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Felon]

Huh? You can have +2 to the DC under the 3.5 rules, it just costs two feats.

Right, and 2 feats is more costly than 1 feat.

And isn't it kinda the point of Spell Focus to focus in one school?

Yes, however, the point is not to make a caster extremely lopsided in one area of spellcasting, so a balance must be struck.

 

[Thanee]

I still don't get it.

The 2 feats are the cost for the power of the DC increase... and this cost is too high IMHO (tho, that's certainly debatable, and also depends on many other factors).

The gap between an augmented and an unaugmented DC is exactly the same, whether you spend one or two feats for it. With the 3.5 feats you can make a 'half-step', but it certainly isn't encouraged to leave it at that...

Bye
Thanee

 

[beaver1024]

Oh, that's bullcrap. Mages have to know what they're doing and pick effective combinations of spells. If you pick a bunch of evocation spells that allow reflex saves, then of course the monsters with good reflex saves and SR will be a problem. The right tool for the right job, not one tool for every job.

Yes, right I forgot. Sorc/wiz always know what is the most effective spell to prepare/know at any point in time right? Wizards will always somehow have access to the right spells, have thousands of gold and plenty of downtime to learn every single spell that might be useful. Sorcs also have plenty of spells known slots to cover effective spell combinations that will applicable all the time. Additionally sorcs/wiz have the ability to somehow pin point the exact weak saves of their opponents right?

 

[WizarDru]

One major reason for the change to Spell Focus hasn't been mentioned. Giving a +2 to one school's save DC's also created a gulf between that school and the other. It proved a major disincentive to casting spells from any other schools.

And still does.

To quote Microsoft: "That is not a bug, it's a feature. The product is working as designed." In other words, that's what spell focus does. My 3.5 sorceror is an enchanter; his spell focus reinforces this idea, with his preference to cast enchantment spells being reinforced by their increased effectiveness. He still casts Magic Missles when needed, but finds ways to cast his enchantments because that's what he does best, by design.

Let's remember that Spell Focus offers disproportionate benefits. Some colleges have far fewer benefits to be reaped because there are fewer spells for them apply spell focus to, such as Transmutation or Divination.

My experience has been that the change in SF/GSF helps de-emphasize casters at higher levels, when the numbers start stacking. The trade-off of power versus diversity strikes a good balance, IMHO.

 

[Henry]

Yes, right I forgot. Sorc/wiz always know what is the most effective spell to prepare/know at any point in time right? Wizards will always somehow have access to the right spells, have thousands of gold and plenty of downtime to learn every single spell that might be useful. Sorcs also have plenty of spells known slots to cover effective spell combinations that will applicable all the time. Additionally sorcs/wiz have the ability to somehow pin point the exact weak saves of their opponents right?

And they'll only have one fight to win, right? This is what Knowledge: Dungeoneering is for, as well as the fact that adventurers get better with every fight they win. Once a mage or divine caster determines what works and what doesn't against a certain type of opponent, they will be forearmed next time -- and chances are if they aren't facing encounters above their CR too often, they'll win each time, even without the DM being lenient.

A sorcerer and wizard both need to prepare spells that will be useful in a variety of situations, but they don't need EVERY spell; they need two or three of each, and this is doable. One sorcerer and a couple of metamagic feats will be able to handle lots of different situations; and even if all a wizard ever gets is his two per level, that's still a good selection of spells with varied saves to choose from.