Are Spells Balanced by Level?
- Thread starter mmadsen
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Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Actually, the problem with non-scaling damage dealing spells is that they would rapidly become useless. Imagine a 12th level wizard--with the enemies he's fighting, single 1d4+1 magic missiles aren't worth casting. Similarly, a fireball spell that only did 5d6 of damage wouldn't be worth very much either.
You might say, so why won't he just cast lots of Magic Missile IIIs? or Fireball Vs? Quite simply, because of the spell slot mechanic that D&D uses for wizards and sorcerors. A 12th level wizard can probably only cast 4 6th level spells (assuming a 22 int). A 12th level sorceror is probably in the same boat (although he's got a lot more 5th level spells to cast). If the wizard's high level slots are the only ones that are useful for dealing damage, that probably elimininates 2/3 of the slots he would normally have available for damage-dealing spells. Ditto for the sorceror. (For an example, ask yourself this: how often do 9th level and above arcane casters use non-scaling damage spells like Flaming Sphere?)
By comparison, althought psionic powers don't scale, psionicists aren't bound by a spell-slot system. Psionicists can use the points they would normally use to manifest 1st level powers to manifest 6th level powers. This enables a high-level psionicist to use his most powerful abilities many more times than a wizard or sorceror of equal level (even though he can't imitate the sorc/wizard's distribution of powers).
(Note that this is primarily a concern for damage dealing spells. Spells that don't deal damage generally don't scale so eliminating scaling of spells would neuter evocation but wouldn't hurt transmutation much).
You might say, so why won't he just cast lots of Magic Missile IIIs? or Fireball Vs? Quite simply, because of the spell slot mechanic that D&D uses for wizards and sorcerors. A 12th level wizard can probably only cast 4 6th level spells (assuming a 22 int). A 12th level sorceror is probably in the same boat (although he's got a lot more 5th level spells to cast). If the wizard's high level slots are the only ones that are useful for dealing damage, that probably elimininates 2/3 of the slots he would normally have available for damage-dealing spells. Ditto for the sorceror. (For an example, ask yourself this: how often do 9th level and above arcane casters use non-scaling damage spells like Flaming Sphere?)
By comparison, althought psionic powers don't scale, psionicists aren't bound by a spell-slot system. Psionicists can use the points they would normally use to manifest 1st level powers to manifest 6th level powers. This enables a high-level psionicist to use his most powerful abilities many more times than a wizard or sorceror of equal level (even though he can't imitate the sorc/wizard's distribution of powers).
(Note that this is primarily a concern for damage dealing spells. Spells that don't deal damage generally don't scale so eliminating scaling of spells would neuter evocation but wouldn't hurt transmutation much).
mmadsen said:
knight_isa
First Post
mmadsen said:
Actually, the Summon Monster spells scale with level, too, because they last 1 round/level. A fiendish hawk that sticks around for ten rounds is much more useful than one that disappears after one.
Also, someone else mentioned that the * image chain of spells is useless. How so? My PC is is an Illusionist that regularly uses them. After all, that Will save to disbelieve only happens if the spell is interacted with, and who bothers to interact with what appears to be a wall of iron? And given Spell Focus( Illusion) and a high Int, the DC's are suitably high if you want to make something more flashy.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
knight_isa said:
Agreed.
IMO the illusionary image spells are finally useful because they spell out what they can and cannot accomplish. Minor Image has a duration of Concentration + 2 rounds, so it is actually useful in combat as a diversion.
My personal favorites as very powerful are: Invisibility, Fly, Polymorph Other, Haste, Fireball.
Would you select one of these spells if they were bumped up one level? You sure would!
Neither Shield nor Mage Armor are problems spells. It is the fact that one of them has a long duration so it is easy to use them in combination. So I would say one of the above could be bumped up a level.
Elder-Basilisk, you give an excellent analysis. I was going to present some of the same basic points, but you beat me to it.
"Useless" might be a bit strong, but forcing spellcasters to use up higher-level spell slots (rather than scaling up effortlessly) is an unequivocal hit to the spellcaster's power. Either we'd have to bump up the spells' power (e.g. 1d6 Magic Missiles and 1d8 Fireballs), or we'd have to increase the number of higher-level spell slots the spellcaster gets.
I actually prefer the notion of power points to spell slots, so this seemed like a natural answer to me.
This is an interesting point, especially in connection with the recent "low magic" discussions. If we eliminate spell scaling, powerful evocations don't go away, but they might not rule the roost quite so much.
"Useless" might be a bit strong, but forcing spellcasters to use up higher-level spell slots (rather than scaling up effortlessly) is an unequivocal hit to the spellcaster's power. Either we'd have to bump up the spells' power (e.g. 1d6 Magic Missiles and 1d8 Fireballs), or we'd have to increase the number of higher-level spell slots the spellcaster gets.
I actually prefer the notion of power points to spell slots, so this seemed like a natural answer to me.
This is an interesting point, especially in connection with the recent "low magic" discussions. If we eliminate spell scaling, powerful evocations don't go away, but they might not rule the roost quite so much.
If we bumped those spells up in level, it would probably be quite easy to make up "lesser" versions to fill their current slots. For instance, Invisibility could use a "lesser" counterpart that works more like a Cloak of Elvenkind; you're hard to see, but only close to invisible while still. Polymorph, as I mentioned before, could require a separate spell for each shape. No one of its uses it overly powerful, but its flexibility is. (You could probably base an entire magic system around Polymorph.) Haste could use a lesser version that simply lets run and dodge better, no extra spellcasting, for instance.
Glitterdust
I personally thinkglitterdust is a way too powerfull spell. Any fighter types are screwed and there is no limit(HD) to what you can effect. And the higher you go in lvl, the save gets worse faster than the fighters will saves(due to lvls, magical items etc). Btw, when i mean fighters, i also mean barbs, and whoever has a weak wil save or a mediocre will save. And not to mention it uncovers invisible foes and is area effect. TOO GOOD
I personally thinkglitterdust is a way too powerfull spell. Any fighter types are screwed and there is no limit(HD) to what you can effect. And the higher you go in lvl, the save gets worse faster than the fighters will saves(due to lvls, magical items etc). Btw, when i mean fighters, i also mean barbs, and whoever has a weak wil save or a mediocre will save. And not to mention it uncovers invisible foes and is area effect. TOO GOOD
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
I'm not sure what makes these spells "too powerful." They were put in there for a reason, after all.
I mean, take Polymorph Other. Like m&m pointed out, no one use of it is powerful, but it is very versatile...however, your average mage, when he can cast it, can't make use of that versatility because they can only cast it once. One spell=one form. I'm not sure this needs a seperate spell for each form, since you have to cast the spell every time you want a different form. The biggest advantages are that you can choose what to do at the time of casting, rather than at the time or memorization (for wizards), and that the one spell can take the place of others you'd have to learn (for sorcs).
I've never had a problem with any of the spells in the PHB...I've been gaming for a good number of years (though, admittedly, many of you have had more.
And only 3e since it came out...), but that tells me that if, say Glitterdust, was that godawful powerful, that the mages I've played and DMed would've gotten their hands on it as soon as they could...
...they almost always go for Melf's Acid Arrow instead. Or one of the ability-increasing spells. Glitterdust? Why wast precious known spells ('cause even Wizards are limited by DM capriciousness as to how much they know) on something that a druid's animal companion or your familiar can do for free (*sniff**sniff* Find the invisible critter, boy!) when you can spend them on things no one else can do in a non-magical way (like blowing stuff up or helping the fighter live a bit longer so you can make your escape).
I dunno...I've never heard of anyone describe an in-game situation to me in which these spells have become unbalancing or too powerful. Maybe if/when that happens, my opinion will be revised. But I haven't seen it...
As for the actual question, I believe another poster hit it on the noggin: Spells are balanced by class. You've gotta take the whole powers of the class into consideration when you're designing a spell list, not the spell list only. Why to Wizards get Fireball or Mage Armor? Because without them, they're walking around unable to deal or take damage...big walking Orc Buffets.
I mean, take Polymorph Other. Like m&m pointed out, no one use of it is powerful, but it is very versatile...however, your average mage, when he can cast it, can't make use of that versatility because they can only cast it once. One spell=one form. I'm not sure this needs a seperate spell for each form, since you have to cast the spell every time you want a different form. The biggest advantages are that you can choose what to do at the time of casting, rather than at the time or memorization (for wizards), and that the one spell can take the place of others you'd have to learn (for sorcs).
I've never had a problem with any of the spells in the PHB...I've been gaming for a good number of years (though, admittedly, many of you have had more.
And only 3e since it came out...), but that tells me that if, say Glitterdust, was that godawful powerful, that the mages I've played and DMed would've gotten their hands on it as soon as they could......they almost always go for Melf's Acid Arrow instead. Or one of the ability-increasing spells. Glitterdust? Why wast precious known spells ('cause even Wizards are limited by DM capriciousness as to how much they know) on something that a druid's animal companion or your familiar can do for free (*sniff**sniff* Find the invisible critter, boy!) when you can spend them on things no one else can do in a non-magical way (like blowing stuff up or helping the fighter live a bit longer so you can make your escape).
I dunno...I've never heard of anyone describe an in-game situation to me in which these spells have become unbalancing or too powerful. Maybe if/when that happens, my opinion will be revised. But I haven't seen it...
As for the actual question, I believe another poster hit it on the noggin: Spells are balanced by class. You've gotta take the whole powers of the class into consideration when you're designing a spell list, not the spell list only. Why to Wizards get Fireball or Mage Armor? Because without them, they're walking around unable to deal or take damage...big walking Orc Buffets.
WaterRabbit
Explorer
A couple of points here.
1) Fine remove scaling -- but what are you going to remove from the fighter/thief/cleric to balance it ? There is no fundamental difference between a Wizard/Sorcerer smackdown versus a Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin/Ranger smackdown. When you talk about removing scaling you cannot consider it in a vacuum.
2) The problem with introducing lots of spell variants lies in the use of the spell. When you are limited to x number of a certain level of spell per day you want to take spells that are versatile in a number of situations.
1) Fine remove scaling -- but what are you going to remove from the fighter/thief/cleric to balance it ? There is no fundamental difference between a Wizard/Sorcerer smackdown versus a Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin/Ranger smackdown. When you talk about removing scaling you cannot consider it in a vacuum.
2) The problem with introducing lots of spell variants lies in the use of the spell. When you are limited to x number of a certain level of spell per day you want to take spells that are versatile in a number of situations.
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