Are Summon Monster Spells Underpowered(and how would you fix it?)

[Zappo]

Excellent, Zappo. Magic should give you enough rope to hang yourself.

Yeah, that's what I think too. I'm fairly proud of that little system: very few and simple actual rules, with the flavour provided just by how they interacted. Much better than piling rules and then having munchkins exploit the interactions. It was neat.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Given the way the CR/EL system works, it seems only natural to scale the number of summoned creatures with caster level. In fact, it could conceivably double with every couple caster levels.

Actually, I like this... Makes more than a bit of sense...

After SM III, though, the ratio of scaling seems to get a bit rediculous (1 creature per 7/Levels for SM IV). Any thoughts on this?

 

[Zappo]

While testing the aforementioned demonologist class, I noticed that scaling the number of creatures indefinitely is not a good idea.

Given the way the CR/EL system works, it seems only natural to scale the number of summoned creatures with caster level. In fact, it could conceivably double with every couple caster levels.

This would quickly lead to summoning small armies. Not necessarily unbalanced, but definitely impossible to manage.

Basically, the scalability can't be based on number of creatures, because even summoning 5 creatures makes a combat incredibly slower. And, on the other hand, at sufficiently high levels, you need dozens of celestial hawks before they are useful.

What about scaling the spells by using advanced creatures? Something like, the creature summoned may have one additional HD per caster level above the minimum required to cast the spell... or something similar but less clunky.

 

[Soldarin]

The Fiendish Girallon or Giant Constrictor Snake (SMV) and the Celestial Dire Bear (SMVI) are fairly good combatants. So good in fact that my 11th level wizard is considered somewhat overpowered in the City of the Spiderqueen adventure.

 

[Purzel]

Given the way the CR/EL system works, it seems only natural to scale the number of summoned creatures with caster level. In fact, it could conceivably double with every couple caster levels.

One problem with that approach is, that the Summon Monster Spells are already being scaled up by the caster level: the duration. Adding extra creatures would increase the power to power^2.

I like to increase the duration to min/level only.

 

[Psiblade]

I need to mention that I have meet a conjurer in any living campaign yet. I do think there is a definite weakness now. I would allow the summoner from Relics & Rituals to help make of some of the power loss for a wizard.


-Psiblade

 

[s/LaSH]

I'm largely annoyed at them, because they don't do everything they should. (Like, allow you to summon outsiders of appropriate power from the MM that missed the PHB lists, or summon more than 5 rats at level 20).

So I went through about a year ago and made some fairly heavy changes and put them here. I put a few options in there, like an optional feat requirement for summoning hordes of monsters, having limited creature types on your summon list, or necromancers summoning undead. Of course, a while later someone with more time and (presumably) more idea of what they're doing got an article in Dragon, but I haven't read it. Does mine stack up?

 

[vox]

more than just CR

For what it's worth, some designer (I believe it was Sean K. Reynolds) said that it was a conscious decision to not put anything w/hands in the summon list before Summon 3. The benefits of a creature that is easy to speak with and able to manipulate objects were too great for a 1 or 2 level spell (or so the argument went).