Are Summon Monster Spells Underpowered(and how would you fix it?)

[Zappo]

Back in the days of 2E, I wrote a Demonologist class (which had a certain success around the Internet) which introduced a cool and flexible mechanic for summoning fiends. Basically, you could choose the "fast" method (casting time about one round, duration in the order of rounds) or the "slow" method (casting time about one turn, duration in the order of hours) for any summoning, but the actual spell used stayed otherwise the same.

You had to roll relatively tough level checks to control the fiend, but you could get some bonuses by lenghtening the casting time and/or taking extra precautions, and after a while they became very reliable for low-level critters. The neat thing was that the spell progression allowed you to attempt incredibly powerful summonings much before you could safely control them if you wanted to. The whole "great power that you can't control" trap typically associated with calling fiends.

Food for thought.

 

[Al]

I don't think that summoning is underpowered per se- it's just that people don't know how to use them as effectively, and/or dismiss the utility of the summoned creatures.

Firstly, I think that many of the creatures summonable, certainly from about the 3rd level list, can indeed hold their own against many opponents. That's not to say that they are of equivalent power- that would be ludicrous. If a CR5 conjurer can summon a CR5 creature with one of his spells, and he has three such spells, then there is clearly something going wrong. However, nearly every summon creature list (except perhaps I) has something useful. And remember- Augment Summoning is the conjurer's best friend.

Lemure: So they're not going to end the world, but Damage Reduction at level 3 is certainly going to throw a lot of opponents.
Fiendish Wolf/Hyena: The Trip ability is quite useful.
Celestial Black Bear: With three attacks, these do a respectable amount of damage, particularly if summoned adjacent to the enemy wizard.
Celestial Bison: Not powerhouses in terms of damage, but DR at level 5 is often still hard to deal with, and their resistances and special abilities are also nice.
Fiendish Dire Ape: DR, Smiting and some powerful attacks
Fiendish Dire Wolf: Ditto. Trip makes them particularly nasty against back-line types.
Celestial Dire Lion; 5/+2 DR is going to annoy many opponents at this level, and they can suck up a decent amount of elemental damage. Attack power is also decent.
Fiendish Girallon: Summon adjacent to opposing wizard and watch the chaos ensue.
Celestial Dire Bear: 10/+3 DR, SR 24, significant offensive power and huge number of hit points.
Chaos Beast: Can really put the wind up people with poor Fort saves.
Huge Elemental: More hit points and HD than the opposing fighter and very great offensive powers (three attacks with potentially 4d8+6 damage)
Fiendish Dire Tiger: SR 25, DR, elemental resistance, decent offense.
Greater Elemental: Phenomenal offensive power and vast number of hit points.
Elder Elemental: Likewise.

However, the best bet is when used in conjunction with the 'flooding tactic'. A hasted conjurer can summon 1.5 monsters/round, so within two rounds of combat, he can potentially have three of his top monsters in action (assuming he's a specialist with a decent Int). The point is- he keeps going. Keep summoning creatures unless you have overwhelming force. This is also great with Wall of Force. Have a huge Wall of Force, summon all your creatures, then drop the Wall and let all hell break loose. Having half a dozen Chaos Beasts suddenly on you can cause all sort of trouble, and half a dozen Elder Elementals is going to cause even a 20th level party to think twice.

Spell usage has been done to the death, so I'll add my 'WHAT HE SAID' banner. Higher-level celestials, devils and demons excel at this sort of thing: erinyes can animate dead at will, which saves time and effort for the necromancer and the vrock's mass charm at will (8th level spell) is not to be sneezed at.

Finally, there is the question of general utility. If you need a door bashed in at low-levels, you could do worse than a celestial bison. Need a trap triggered? Blow a Summon Monster I and send it a celestial badger. Not sure what's round the corner and don't want to find out- use a celestial eagle. The uses for summoning are as many and as varied as the summoner's imagination.

 

[mmadsen]

The neat thing was that the spell progression allowed you to attempt incredibly powerful summonings much before you could safely control them if you wanted to. The whole "great power that you can't control" trap typically associated with calling fiends.

Excellent, Zappo. Magic should give you enough rope to hang yourself.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The problem is that for general utility, the durations are crap on a cracker.

"GO EAGLE! GO! GO! GO!"....okay, just a minute, gotta summon another one....."GO EAGLE!"

And because much of the SM spells are pretty much only minor annoyances for monsters you're facing, utility is pretty much the only use for them...

 

[mmadsen]

Lemure: So they're not going to end the world, but Damage Reduction at level 3 is certainly going to throw a lot of opponents.

Actually, they could be completely immune to all damage, and they still wouldn't be much of a threat; they only stick around for 18 seconds (three rounds).

Traits like DR, regeneration, and high Hit Points might be really valuable to a PC, but they're next to useless for a creature who's only on this plane for seconds at a time.

 

[Tzarevitch]

I'd say either decrease the casting time, or increase the duration. Personally I'm partial to the second solution as it allows for more noncombat applications.

The durations are especially silly at low levels, "look I can summon a fiendish dire rat for a whole 12 seconds."

I largely agree but I prefer to decrease the casting time to 1 Action rather than increase duration. Personally I think the 10 or so rounds you get at mid levels is more than enough duration. My problem is more with the slow casting time and the fact most of the stuff you can summon is too weak.

With the exception of the elementals, most of the creatures on the higher level lists are weak as hell and can't take or give enough of a pounding to be useful at the levels you can summon them. In my experience you summon elementals to fight because they are the toughest and hardest hitting things you can get at any level (almost always use earth unless the fight is in the air or in the water), and you only summon the other creatures if they have some unusual property that is useful at the moment.

The new CR-based summoning guidelines at least helps, but it is still hard to find a creature besides an elemental that you can summon with a Summon Monster spell that can take or dish out enough punishment to survive against opponents that are similar in power to the spell's caster.

Tzarevitch

 

[mmadsen]

I largely agree but I prefer to decrease the casting time to 1 Action rather than increase duration.

For flavor reasons, I prefer precisely the opposite.

 

[mmadsen]

Isn't the fact that they are all seperate spells another part of the problem? A sorcerer takes fireball as a third level spell and it continues to be useful. A sorcerer takes Summon Monster III and it very soon becomes completely useless. What if there was only one summon monster spell and the results scaled by caster level?

Given the way the CR/EL system works, it seems only natural to scale the number of summoned creatures with caster level. In fact, it could conceivably double with every couple caster levels.

 

[hong]

Oh dear, mmadsen's talking to himself again!


ME AND I
(B.Andersson/B.Ulvaeus)
First release 1980

Sometimes when I'm mad
There's a part of me that seems to be a little sad
Sometimes when I scream
There's a voice in me that says, "You shouldn't be so mean"
Oh no, oh no
Part of me is acting while the other stands beside
Yes, I am to myself what Jekyll must have been to Hyde

We're like sun and rainy weather
Sometimes we're a hit together
Me and I
Gloomy moods and inspiration
We're a funny combination
Me and I
I don't think I'm different or in any way unique
Think about yourself for a minute
And you'll find the answer in it
Everyone's a freak

Sometimes I have toyed
With ideas that I got from good old Dr. Freud
Nothing new of course
It may seem to you I try to break through open doors
Oh no, oh no
I just wanna say a lot of that applies to me
'Cause it's an explanation to my split identity

We're like sun and rainy weather
Sometimes we're a hit together
Me and I
Gloomy moods and inspiration
We're a funny combination
Me and I
I don't think I'm different or in any way unique
Think about yourself for a minute
And you'll find the answer in it
Everyone's a freak

Me and I...

We're like sun and rainy weather
Sometimes we're a hit together
Me and I
Gloomy moods and inspiration
We're a funny combination
Me and I
I don't think I'm different or in any way unique
Think about yourself for a minute
And you'll find the answer in it
Everyone's a freak

We're like sun and rainy weather
Sometimes we're a hit together
Me and I
Gloomy moods and inspiration
We're a funny combination
Me and I...

 

[nharwell]

I've been using 1 min/level duration for Summon Monster spells in my campaign for over a year with no problems. It makes almost no difference in combat, but allows the spells to be used in more flexible,non-combat ways.