Are Summon Monster Spells Underpowered(and how would you fix it?)
- Thread starter Merlion
- Start date
Baron Von StarBlade
Registered User
I'll definitely throw in my I agree with Eric hat. At lower levels SM sucks bad, you really can only use them for a quick flank for your rogue, or trying to annoy that spellcaster for a round or two. Once you get to SM4 (dire apes rule) though it really does start to pick up as the creatures are going to be around for a little while and they can actually be of use.
The other problem is that the spell itself doesn't scale well. Therefore picking SM 2 at level 4 will be useless to you at level 14. I've been inclined to making a singular Summon Monster spell, that works in conjunction with Heighten spell, so the higher level spell slot you give it, the more buff your creature is, this would make it more useful for sorcerers and wizards.
The other problem is that the spell itself doesn't scale well. Therefore picking SM 2 at level 4 will be useless to you at level 14. I've been inclined to making a singular Summon Monster spell, that works in conjunction with Heighten spell, so the higher level spell slot you give it, the more buff your creature is, this would make it more useful for sorcerers and wizards.
drnuncheon
Explorer
Merlion said:
Remember, it's not supposed to be able to beat a CR 18 or 19 creature. It's supposed to be roughly as effective as other spells of its level vs. that CR 18-19 creature.
Consider the versatility of summoning the lammassu. Sure, he's not going to go one-on-one with that CR 19 creature, but you've just added another source of spellcasting to your party - since the lamassu speaks Common, you can order it to do things other than attack.
So for the price of a 9th level spell you're effectively getting an extra action to cast spells in, and 7 levels of cleric spells to cast - letting you get around pesky arcane restrictions like a lack of healing. As we've seen from the Mystic Theurge debates, that's apparently incredibly unbalanced and dooms you to the nethermost regions of munchkin hell.
Plus, there's the spell-like abilities. That 9th level spell got you two improved invisibilities for the combatants in the party. And the magic circle's not bad either, especially if you're fighting things with dominate-type abilities.
So yeah, it'll suck if you just send it in to attack. But a fireball will suck if you drop it in the middle of your own party, too. It's all in how you use it.
J
Shard O'Glase
First Post
The problem is for combat that 1 round casting time makes it all but useless. Any spellcaster that starts speaking in a firm voice for the entire round is lucky to live through to the next round, but succesfully get it off is a virtual impossibility against any foes worth the effort of a high level spell.
Great gazaku I summon forth a Lam...ouch, um guys anyone got a helaing potion handy.
Great gazaku I summon forth a Lam...ouch, um guys anyone got a helaing potion handy.
Merlion
First Post
drnuncheon said:
Remember, it's not supposed to be able to beat a CR 18 or 19 creature. It's supposed to be roughly as effective as other spells of its level vs. that CR 18-19 creature.
Consider the versatility of summoning the lammassu. Sure, he's not going to go one-on-one with that CR 19 creature, but you've just added another source of spellcasting to your party - since the lamassu speaks Common, you can order it to do things other than attack.
So for the price of a 9th level spell you're effectively getting an extra action to cast spells in, and 7 levels of cleric spells to cast - letting you get around pesky arcane restrictions like a lack of healing. As we've seen from the Mystic Theurge debates, that's apparently incredibly unbalanced and dooms you to the nethermost regions of munchkin hell.
Plus, there's the spell-like abilities. That 9th level spell got you two improved invisibilities for the combatants in the party. And the magic circle's not bad either, especially if you're fighting things with dominate-type abilities.
So yeah, it'll suck if you just send it in to attack. But a fireball will suck if you drop it in the middle of your own party, too. It's all in how you use it.
J
Hrmm...it still just doesnt work for me. and thats just SM9. you can get some pretty reasonble stuff with it actualy...Elder Elemental, Astral Deva and Ghaele Eladrin arent to bad.
But looking at a lot of the low to mid level ones...I mean..you need a 4th level spell for a LANTERN Archon? Interestingly for some reason you can get decent elemental type things...I mean a Medium sized arrowhawk with a 4th level spell is pretty decent. But for Celestials and the like...
And then theirs the limitedness of it. each spell has a short list. and it only allows summoning of extraplanar things(well mostly...some times it breaks its own rule as with the Lammasu)...why cant I summon an ordinary Displacer Beast if I want?
And then combine all that with the short duration/long casting time issue...
Summoning for non-combat
I once summoned a githyanki in a non-combat situation with summon monster II, primarily for it to use its clairvoyance spell-like ability. I have 6th level bard, which means the githyanki a few seconds to cast his spells look through the corridor and tell me what he saw.
My DM decided that he didn't really have the time to tell me everything that he saw but he allowed one piece of information. Besides, he thought that casting 2nd level spell in order to get a 3rd level spell is somewhat wrong. The thing is my bard has a magical item that allows him to understand any language as per the tongues spell. So, I argued that summon monsters spells aren't just for combat, as long as I summoned something intelligent. My DM answered in order to do what my character had just done, I'd need summon planar ally. From now on, summon monster is only for combat in our games.
I once summoned a githyanki in a non-combat situation with summon monster II, primarily for it to use its clairvoyance spell-like ability. I have 6th level bard, which means the githyanki a few seconds to cast his spells look through the corridor and tell me what he saw.
My DM decided that he didn't really have the time to tell me everything that he saw but he allowed one piece of information. Besides, he thought that casting 2nd level spell in order to get a 3rd level spell is somewhat wrong. The thing is my bard has a magical item that allows him to understand any language as per the tongues spell. So, I argued that summon monsters spells aren't just for combat, as long as I summoned something intelligent. My DM answered in order to do what my character had just done, I'd need summon planar ally. From now on, summon monster is only for combat in our games.
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Zappo
Explorer
Eh, I think they are slightly underpowered.
In my opinion, they are not supposed to be very good as combat spells, and for this reason I think the current power level of the summoned creatures is fine.
The immense versatility of the summon monster spells more than makes up for their weakness in direct combat. It's worth repeating once again: they are not as powerful as a fireball or meteor shower, and they are not supposed to be so. You can use summons in so many wildly different situations that demanding for them to be good in combat too would really be too much.
However, the duration is far too short for a spell that should be good outside combat, and it's practically ridiculous at low levels, where you don't even have time to explain to the creature what it's supposed to do. I would bump the duration, maybe to concentration + 1 round/level.
Also, they suffer from the fixed list. It means that buying new monster books doesn't add to the creatures you can summon, and it means that all summoned creatures will always have no class levels and minimum HD. Removing the fixed list in favor of a CR-based system would make them much cooler and slightly more powerful.
In my opinion, they are not supposed to be very good as combat spells, and for this reason I think the current power level of the summoned creatures is fine.
The immense versatility of the summon monster spells more than makes up for their weakness in direct combat. It's worth repeating once again: they are not as powerful as a fireball or meteor shower, and they are not supposed to be so. You can use summons in so many wildly different situations that demanding for them to be good in combat too would really be too much.
However, the duration is far too short for a spell that should be good outside combat, and it's practically ridiculous at low levels, where you don't even have time to explain to the creature what it's supposed to do. I would bump the duration, maybe to concentration + 1 round/level.
Also, they suffer from the fixed list. It means that buying new monster books doesn't add to the creatures you can summon, and it means that all summoned creatures will always have no class levels and minimum HD. Removing the fixed list in favor of a CR-based system would make them much cooler and slightly more powerful.
Merlion
First Post
how does this sound as a summon monster spell-level-summons-CR progression?
1:1
2:2
3:3
4:4-5
5: 6-7
6:8-9
7:9-10
8:10-11
9:12+
And maybe couple it with a duration increase and the ability to summon for combat or non combat...say 5 rounds+1 round/level for combat, 10 Mins + 1/min level for non combat.
But mainly I am interested in the first paty
Edit: redid it again. the version I had up here was still I think a bit overpowered. with the 12+ I'd say SM9 is needed to summon anything with a CR over 10 up to a maximum determined by the DM(I'd say 14 or 15 if it was me most likely. Edit Again: fixed an error
1:1
2:2
3:3
4:4-5
5: 6-7
6:8-9
7:9-10
8:10-11
9:12+
And maybe couple it with a duration increase and the ability to summon for combat or non combat...say 5 rounds+1 round/level for combat, 10 Mins + 1/min level for non combat.
But mainly I am interested in the first paty
Edit: redid it again. the version I had up here was still I think a bit overpowered. with the 12+ I'd say SM9 is needed to summon anything with a CR over 10 up to a maximum determined by the DM(I'd say 14 or 15 if it was me most likely. Edit Again: fixed an error
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I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
I understand the new WotC supplement "Pokemon d20" will solve this problem with the revolutionary implementation of the "Trainer" class...
I generally agree. By limiting the duration, they've forced the spell to be used for combat. By forcing the spell to be used for combat, it sucks rocks, since it's only useful for a temporary distraction (if you're lucky).
So if they don't want it used for combat, they should jack up the duration significantly.
If they do want it used for combat, they should jack up the power level significantly.
Or, they could use a compromise by jacking up the duration a little bit, and jacking up the power a little bit.
I'm hoping they think of SOMETHING.
Until then, I'm sticking with FFd20 Caller, thankyouverymuch!
Mmmmm....Bahamut...
I generally agree. By limiting the duration, they've forced the spell to be used for combat. By forcing the spell to be used for combat, it sucks rocks, since it's only useful for a temporary distraction (if you're lucky).
So if they don't want it used for combat, they should jack up the duration significantly.
If they do want it used for combat, they should jack up the power level significantly.
Or, they could use a compromise by jacking up the duration a little bit, and jacking up the power a little bit.
I'm hoping they think of SOMETHING.
Until then, I'm sticking with FFd20 Caller, thankyouverymuch!
Mmmmm....Bahamut...Similar Threads
