Are Summon Monster Spells Underpowered(and how would you fix it?)

[Sniktch]

My points have already been addressed. Summon Monster spells are weak IMO, but not extremely so - I've seen them used to great effect in my games. However, I would probably tweak the durations and power levels of the creatures just a bit - currently I am using the article gfunk mentioned and haven't tried to make changes to the duration yet, but it does need to be a bit longer IMO (specifically for lower level summoners)

 

[BryonD]

I think they are a little weak -- the creature you can summon with your strongest spell is usually not strong enough to be an effective combatant for the challenges that character would be expected to face.

If a single spell could produce a creature that on its own could effectively combat a correct CR opponent, wouldn't that be over-powered by definition?

 

[kenjib]

Isn't the fact that they are all seperate spells another part of the problem?

A sorcerer takes fireball as a third level spell and it continues to be useful. A sorcerer takes Summon Monster III and it very soon becomes completely useless.

What if there was only one summon monster spell and the results scaled by caster level?

 

[Particle_Man]

One idea off the top of my head:

Subtract one level from all the Summon Monster Lists. Invent a new Spell called Summon Monster 0 and give that spell the old Summon Monster I list. Delete the (now listless) Summon Monster IX.
Now the highest Summon Monster spell is Summon Monster VIII, which has the old 9th level list. The 9th level Summoning Uber-Spell already exists, and it is called GATE.

I have no idea if this would work, but it does address not only the weakness of summon monster spells, but also the EXTREME weakness of Summon Monster IX when compared to Gate.

 

[Daxz]

How about adding summoning feats? For example: if MSII is casted as a 3rd level spell instead of a 2nd level spell then the duration will be 1 turn/level, if 3 lv higher you get a max hp monster and last for 1 hr/lv.

Of course this would be after fixing the tables a little bit and make summoned monster more worthwhile to cast.

In my opinion there should be three types of summoning:
1)everyday summon, last a long time may be 1 hr/lv but summons a weak monster, which main use is scout/guard

2)combat summon, brings a though monster with good AC and hps and may be some damage absorvance, main use is to "tank" for the caster, last may be 5rounds/lv

3)Special purpose summon, these are long casting time spells which might even require special components (call then rituals), uses include; summon a horse at low level or a Roc at high level for travel, summon an extra-planar creature to help caster either through answering questions or providing other type of divination, etc.

I like how the Baldur's Gate, Icewind dale summoning spells work. Some were a bit too powerful but it gave great pleasure to cast them. Also in NWN, at least because they last a long time and they could at least hold the monsters while I blasted them.

 

[Arnwyn]

No, I don't think the summon monster spells are underpowered; therefore, I would not fix them.

I've seen all of them used effectively IMC. (Celestial Dire Bear? Ouch.)

 

[drnuncheon]

If you do increase the power level of the SM spells, be very careful about which 3rd party supplements you use. We have a summoning specialist in our party with Augment Summons (T&B), Conjure Mastery (BoEM), and a ring of blue conjures (also BoEM) who is...pretty scary.

From his SMVII list, with all of the above:
Elemental, Air (Huge): HD 21d8+168; 262 hp; Init +15 (+11 Dex, +4 Improved Init); Spd fly 100ft (perfect); AC 31 (-2 size, +11 Dex, +8 natural, +4 deflection); Melee +24/+19/+14 (2d8+10 slam);Face 10ftx5ft; Reach 15 ft; SA Air mastery, whirlwind; SQ Elemental, DR 10/+2; AL N; SV Fort +14, Ref +23, Will +7; Str 24, Dex 33, Con 24, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 11; Listen +23, Spot +23; Dodge, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Weapon Finesse (slam) (MM 81)

...and that's not counting the potential for buffing it with, say, adrenaline surge or it plus the rest of the party with mass haste...

J

 

[Merlion]

Lammasu against a CR 18 or 19 creature? I dont think so.
Celestial badger against anything other than a goblin?

 

[Nifft]

Here's how I fix them:

http://klimt.cns.nyu.edu/~fishman/DnD/summon-tables.html

-- Nifft

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I say 1 min/level duration and a standard aciton to cast. They don't have the power to jsutify the 1 round casting time which get sinterupted way too often, and since they should have a utility base they need a duration beyond 1 round/level.