Are Summon Monster Spells Underpowered(and how would you fix it?)

[frankthedm]

a little too weak

One thing is you are paying for the motility of the spell. You get to choose what creatue you want when you cast the spell and can choose to get a group of creature from the lower lists. This isn't that good most of the time but can come in handy.

Perhaps if the spell is prepared ahead of time with the creature choice made then, making it a standard casting time would be fair compensation.

 

[The Sigil]

As Frank mentioned, the flexibility of the Summon spells is an excellent thing... they're kind of like a Swiss Army knife spell - a different creature for a different job. Don't underestimate that. Also, the ability to summon multiple weaker creatures isn't all that bad either, for reasons I'll touch on in a moment.

However, in my mind, Summon Monster spell's most effective use is as part of a combo attack - it's the ultimate "support" spell. Why? Because it allows you to control tactics on the battlefield.

Possible tactics:

1.) The obvious one is the classic one - cause the Summoned Monsters to appear in a flanking position on an enemy. One wizard with one Summon Monster spell can help the three front-line fighters all get flanking by summoning multiple weaker foes and placing them strategically. Rogues will love you, too. Your opponents can mitigate this by giving up attacks on you to swat the summoned monsters - but that is blows that don't hit you, so it's as good as a pre-emptive cure spell.

2.) The twist on this is the "PREVENT FLANKING" maneuver - when one of your front-line fighters (or you yourself) is threatened with being flanked, simply Summon a Monster into the space that would complete the flank. Rogues will hate you. In order to flank you, your opponents have to waste time knocking out the summoned monster - that's blows that aren't hitting you (again)!

3.) The "target dummy" approach. Drop a line of summoned critters between you and the baddies so that your archers and/or spellcasters have time to dump more arrows and/or spells into them before they close for melee.

4.) The "synergy with (Great) Cleave and Combat Reflexes" approach - put your best fighter, who has (Great) Cleave and Combat Reflexes, next to the BBEG. Then have your wimpy weakling summoned monsters move through your fighter buddy's threatened area (and not Mr. BBEG's) and let the fighter thump them into the ground with the resultant AoO - then use the "free" attack from (Great) Cleave to whomp the BBEG. Works best with a High-Dex, High-Str fighter with Great Cleave and therefore lots of AoOs (and free thumps on the BBEG).

There are more uses, but these four - especially the last one - are the most fun "synergistic" uses of Summon Monster - and help make it quite versatile and balanced for its level (s).

--The Sigil

 

[drnuncheon]

4.) The "synergy with (Great) Cleave and Combat Reflexes" approach

This is technically known as the "bag of rats" or "bucket of snails" technique, depending on which boards you frequent.

(Well, OK, to be pedantically accurate, the classic example of the tactic actually involves Whirlwind Attack and Great Cleave. Same idea though.)

J

 

[Felon]

LOL, wow, this really takes me back! I remember posting a messge about how the Summon Monster spells were inadequate, and man o man did I get slammed. Don't recall a single person siding with me.

Nice to see some folks have caught up

Yes, a summon monster spell will, at best provide a small speed bump. Perhaps do a little damage, perhaps soak up a little damage. Then again, how much does a single direct damage spell like fireball slow down a foe?

If you ask me, I'd say that summoning spells should be among the more potent spells for their level--you should get more mileage out Summon Monster III than you do out of a Fireball--but should be very costly to cast...even to the point of costing some XP.

 

[mmadsen]

Silly Summoning

So our intrepid heroes are about to square off against their first evil sorcerer (or high priest) when he summons an unspeakable evil from beyond to do his fighting for him: a fiendish dire rat -- that does his evil bidding for six seconds before returning to hell.

Does this strike anyone else as...wrong?

Even a 5th-level spellcaster only summons his evil servants for 30 seconds (five rounds) -- and his options tend to be things like: fiendish dire weasel, 1d3 fiendish squids, or 1d4+1 fiendish dire rats.

OK, OK, he can summon minor devils (Lemures, not the ring-tailed kind) too, but still only for seconds at a time.

The Planar Ally/Binding spells make sense. Why do these summoning spells seem so silly?

(Which reminds me, does anyone else find it odd that Summon Nature's Ally works just like Summon Monster? I naturally assumed it would work more like, say, Aquaman summoning fish; it would bring nearby animals to your aid. Instead *poof* fighting badger!)

Are there any examples, from folklore or from fantasy literature, of evil sorcerers summoning fiendish dire weasels for seconds at a time? Did I somehow miss all those stories?

 

[mmadsen]

If we compare Lesser Planar Binding to the Summon Monster spells a few things immediately pop up. The 5th-level Lesser Planar Binding summons an 8-HD monster for days at a time, while Summon Monster V only summons a 5-HD monster for 9 rounds (less than one minute). On the other hand, Lesser Planar Binding gives the summoned creature a Will save to avoid the trap (which requires a Magic Circle) and opposed Charisma checks to ignore your requests (or break free if you roll a 1).
The more powerful 6th-level Planar Binding spell summons up to 16 HD of creatures. The 8th-level Greater Planar Binding summons up to 24 HD of creatures.

Would it be that difficult to make all summonings work this way?

I thought I'd try to piece together a simple Summon Monster spell that feels more like your classic demon summoning:

• When the creature is summoned, it attempts a Will saving throw. If it succeeds, it returns to its own plane (or never quite arrives in the summoner's plane).
• The summoned creature spends one round bargaining with its summoner. The summoner makes a Charisma check opposed by the summoned creature's Charisma check, modified (+0 to +6) for any reward offered by the summoner. If the summoned creature wins, it refuses service but remains on the summoners plane.
• Depending on how much the summoner won the Charisma check by, the summoned monster will subject itself to only so much harm: 0, until threatened; 1, first blood; 5, half hit points, 10 death.
• A summoned creature will only perform one task, and it won't let on to what degree it will risk its own hide. (Roll its Charisma check secretly.) It might agree to guard the evil wizard's tower, then flee as soon as our heroes attack.

To simplify things, the Will save and the opposed Charisma check could get folded into one opposed Will check, or we could just drop the Will save entirely.

Thoughts?

 

[mmadsen]

My suggestions would lead to scenarios like:

• A wizard summons a demon to guard his mystic artifact. He loses the battle of wills (badly, natural 1), and the demon eats him.
• A wizard summons a demon to seek out and kill his enemy. The demon goes off, attacks his enemy, but flees back to the abyss after its victim displays the Holy Whatsit. (Wizard and demon tied on Will check.)
• A wizard summons a demon to fight a band of intruders. The demon is only willing to fight until injured (Wizard won Will check by 1 to 4), but none of the intruders have magic weapons, and it eats them all without getting hurt.

Would people find this more interesting than summoning the outsider for N rounds?

 

[Stalker0]

I'm definately in the increase duration camp. I think that would make summons the utility spells they have the potential to be.

As for combining all the summons into one spell based on caster level, I think that's a little too much. Think of all the spells you get with summoned monster, and combined that into one spell. Talk about the sorc's best friend.

I think any attempt to base summoned monsters on CR, ECL, whatever- its eventually just going to lead to balance problems. It would be nice if they updated the list a bit (3.5 anyone), but going by a formula I think will end up badly.

 

[Technik4]

I think the casting time is fine, it shouldn't be that quick or easy to summon something from another plane.

I think there should be 3 spells: Summon Lesser Monster, Summon Monster, and Summon Greater Monster. Everything should fit in-between those spells. The increase in versatility more than makes up for the short duration. Plus, thats why we have things like metamagics (extend spell).

Summon Lesser Monster 2nd level spell, allows you to summon monsters (1d3) from Summon Monster 1 or (1) from Summon Monster II. Once your caster level is 7 or higher, your SMI goes up to 1d4+1, your SMII goes to 1d3, and you have the option of summoning 1 from SMIII.

Summon Monster 5th level spell, allows you to summon monsters (1d3) from Summon Monster IV, or (1) from Summon Monster V. Once your caster level is 12 or higher, your SMIV goes up to 1d4+1, your SMV goes to 1d3, and you have the option of summoning 1 from SMVI.

Summon Greater Monster 8th level spell, allows you to summon monsters (1d3) from Summon Monster VII, or (1) from Summon Monster VIII. Once your caster level is 17 or higher, your SMVII goes up to 1d4+1, your SMVIII goes to 1d3, and you have the option of summoning 1 from SMIX.

Technik

 

[Purzel]

But looking at a lot of the low to mid level ones...I mean..you need a 4th level spell for a LANTERN Archon? Interestingly for some reason you can get decent elemental type things...I mean a Medium sized arrowhawk with a 4th level spell is pretty decent. But for Celestials and the like...

Don't underestimate a Lantern Archon, it was one of my favorite monsters. Just take a close look at its stats:

• Fly: it can stay out of range of many enemies you will face and it can reach places you cannot reach
  
• Speed 60 ft.: your enemies will hardly be fast enough to chase and kill that little brat
  
• Light rays as attacks: tunnels thru enemy's DR and elemental resistances. And as touch attacks, they will hit very often and get past heavy armors. Extra 2d6 of light damage per round anyone?
  
• DR 20/+1: this little buddy is hard to kill by most enemies, if they don't have magic weapons
  
• Low hitpoints a problem? With intelligent use of flying, speed 60ft. and the DR 20/+1 your lantern archon gets hurt? Let the little brat "Aid" itself, if you want to double its hitpoints.
  
• Aid (2nd level spell, cleric only)
  
• Detect Evil (1st level spell, cleric and ranger only)
  
• Continual Flame (2nd level spell): and you spare a lot of ruby dust and can make a room permanently shining bright with a lot of magic flames
  
• Aura of Menace: scare off the many weeny fighters, that the BBEG sends against the group. With a -2 to many of their rolls even the party wizard can get into a hand-to-hand brawl with them
  
• Permanent Magic Circle against Evil (3nd level spell): just let them float close to your front line fighters and you spare some spells
  
• Teleport without error (7th level spell, wizards only): okay, they don't teleport other people around, but feel free to use them to transport (without error) up to 50 lbs. of gear around the world.
  Use them to send messages, to get your order of potions from the next town while you're still stuck in a dungeon and send the payment to the merchant at the same time (better you warn the merchant beforehand) ...
  
• Tongue (3rd level spell): need some translations NOW? Only some words? Like saying to the angry foreign people: "We come in peace! Please stop shooting pointy things at us!"
  
• Keen Vision: Lowlight Vision and Darkvision, including the ability to fly with great speed makes them great spies to look around the corner AND return fast enough to tell you, what they saw
  
• Immunity to Petrification: good against bastards like a medusa.
  
• Immunity to Electricity: send the archon into a group of weenies sent against the party, Aura of Menace them (-2 to their saves), then Lighting Bolt them. Or just let your faithful little Lantern Archon bugger those enemies with lighting attacks, before you come in

Let a pro summoner (one of my characters summoned at least one beasty once per gaming session, that campaign lasted from level 1 to level 13) tell you: I think the Celestial Lantern Archon is a very good SM4 choice.