D&D 4E Are the 4E previews like turning it up to 11?

[Jack99]

IMO not a good analogy. DnD is a development environment, and those do get released in early beta versions. In fact, when it comes to standards definition there's usually a broad set of people involved in the process.

Why? Because people are using DnD to develop their games. DnD is not the game, the game is people's campaigns and adventures. With so much invested I think people are understandably interested in what is going on to a level of detail that you don't have with computer games, etc.

Yes it is far off IMO, given the amount of preparation I do. I've never "house ruled" anyone's novel. I can take someone's video game or novel home and consume it as it was meant. I can't take the DnD PHB home and do anything with it until it interfaces with people's ideas about settings, character's etc. WotC IMO needs to understand that it is relying on it's players and DMs to give it life, it's collaborating with us in a way that you don't do in these other instances. I really think it would be a bad idea for them to treat us like a passive audience.

You make some really good points. Never saw it that way. Problem is, I guess, with so many customers (I heard 4 million quite a few times), who all want different things, they will never make all happy. Some want the status quo no matter how good the new stuff is, and will be all over any problems or any bad rules that come out, even in a beta version. So I still find it hard to blame them that we havent heard much yet.

One could argue that its very capitalistic of them to want to "cash in" on the preview books, however, in this age of internet and filesharing, we all know that as soon as they release the info, it will be available for free, and lots of people will take advantage of that.

To sum up: I agree now that we should be more involved in the process, however, I dont think its unreasonable to wait at least til after the playtesting is well on the way/has ended, before we demand that this involvment should happen.

Cheers

 

[broghammerj]

It would also be instructive, of couse, if we could see an example of one of these "false" accusations of lying?

I don't want to rehash that old argument. It goes without saying that some people feel as though WOTC has handled several issues poorly (perhaps lying) including: DND experience would be the place for major announcements, "we are not working on 4E", and the Dungeon/Dragon cancellations. It all comes down to perception. I would argue that a significant number of people have that perception and whether it is true or not does not matter. It hurts the consumers' feelings toward the company.

For example, many Americans believe the Japanese build better cars. Evidence would show that American car companies are building higher quality cars than in years past. Despite this, the perception of poor quality exists and the big 3 are losing in the sales department.

By inquiring about "false" accusations of lying you appear to be saying that you believe WOTC did indeed lie. I however do not get that sense from your post.

 

[Morrus]

The emphasis I use on wonder is to make a joke because right now all we are being sold is wonder. I know little to nothing about the bread I am supposed to buy. Is it vitamin fortified, wheat, white, rye, etc.

If you look at my above example we were getting concrete info a year before release. Besides if all of these WOTC books are so called previews, why not confirm a few facts? So far no one has convinced me why this would cause any harm. As for wetting my appetite with a preview, how about giving me a taste of the cheese instead of telling me that the cheese taste great.

You don't need to know what vitamins are in your bread a year before you buy it. You also don't need to know the specifics of 4E a year before you buy it (although, frankly, the claim that no information is available is ludicrous - I've managed to compile a massive page crammed with things WotC has said).

Sure, I agree you might want to know more before you buy; I don't doubt that you will. Even if you don't find out more before launch (although you WILL), after it's released you culd read reviews, flip through it in the gamestore or watever, just like with most other things you buy. Nobody's going to put a gun to your head and insist you purchase it on the day of release. Heck, wait until October and be REALLY sure you want it.

4E is a long way off yet. It's only two weeks after it has been announced. People REALLY need to cool down.

 

[broghammerj]

You don't need to know what vitamins are in your bread a year before you buy it. You also don't need to know the specifics of 4E a year before you buy it (although, frankly, the claim that no information is available is ludicrous - I've managed to compile a massive page crammed with things WotC has said).

Sure, I agree you might want to know more before you buy; I don't doubt that you will. Even if you don't find out more before launch (although you WILL), after it's released you culd read reviews, flip through it in the gamestore or watever, just like with most other things you buy. Nobody's going to put a gun to your head and insist you purchase it on the day of release. Heck, wait until October and be REALLY sure you want it.

4E is a long way off yet. It's only two weeks after it has been announced. People REALLY need to cool down.

I am in no way saying I won't buy 4E. In fact I am really excited by it. I will definitely buy the core rules at least. I am not one of these people who is shaking a fit at WOTC accusing them of the money grab. I probably come off as someone who is really impatient and can't wait to get more info, but that is not the case.

What I am more concerned about is how WOTC appears to be treating me as the consumer. 3E previews appeared professionally done, well timed, and gave me real information as the consumer. I got a sense the system was well developed. 4E comes off as rushed with a lot of double speak. We have all these books that are previews, but can't tell you what we used. Instead we get ridiculous story hours with a bunch of conjecture to follow.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

What I am more concerned about is how WOTC appears to be treating me as the consumer. 3E previews appeared professionally done, well timed, and gave me real information as the consumer. I got a sense the system was well developed. 4E comes off as rushed with a lot of double speak. We have all these books that are previews, but can't tell you what we used. Instead we get ridiculous story hours with a bunch of conjecture to follow.

Come back in three months, then.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'd rephrase that to, "The answer is likely no because WOTC doesn't want to preview material that is still under playtesting and might be revised. They don't want to do that because certain persons will jump on any errors in it and proclaim doom and gloom across the internets."

They're already doing that, and so it wouldn't change anything. So why not release previews with a big "unfinished" sticker on them?

Also, given that the rules are going to need to be finalized very soon, one would think that there are some major parts of the core rules set in stone, and that the changes are going to be fairly minor. Why can't we get more substantial info, kept a bit fuzzy around the edges to account for those minor changes?

 

[gizmo33]

To sum up: I agree now that we should be more involved in the process, however, I dont think its unreasonable to wait at least til after the playtesting is well on the way/has ended, before we demand that this involvment should happen.

I agree that it would be extremely challenging to get 4 million people all involved in a decision making process. Then again, nations govern themselves under much more difficult circumstances, and software standards evolve in a larger and more competative community. Nothing goes 100% as planned, but WotC could recognize this in the same way that they recognized the realities that led to the OGL and come up with methods for dealing with it.

As far as waiting for playtesting: all of the comments from WotC and industry types (such as Monte Cook) have included design rationale, none of which as waited for playtesting results. They seem comfortable with the idea that they can propose solutions based on experience with existing systems and basic logical reasoning. If such is the case then I would suggest that it's reasonable to assume that many of us in the non-professional community have a comparable (though not necessarily equal) degree of experience (about 25 years in my case) to at least be worthy of having ideas and experiences considered.

Ultimately, I think it's going to take this kind of reasoning because playtests and market research can tell you what people like, but it generally cannot propose the solution to begin with - only judge it afterwards.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

That was a whole year before 3E was released! Do you think 4E is seriously in a similar position?

If nothing else, 3E will remain the most-tested RPG ever produced.

 

[BryonD]

I always take business interest talk with a heaping of salt.
And this is no different.
Really, I'd consider it absurd to expect a business to do anything else than promote their product to the fullest extent. And I haven't the slightest problem with it.

That said, I really get the vibe so far that the guys in the know are truly finding that they have improved their personal gaming experiences through development of the new system so far. And that the excitement of the R&D guys comes at least, if not much more, from that than from a sales drive. These guys know where their paychecks come from. And you won't focusing on places where they may have concerns for that reason.

But that doesn't mean that they feel the need to go out and fake enthusiasm. Even if they were flat out told to lie and pretend they were having a blast (which moves from marketing into a stupid shoot your self in the foot move that I don't remotely believe to be the case), I don't think so many of them could so effectively create a false impression at real pleasure.

Bottom line is that I tend to be cynical as hell, yet the one single thing I really think I know about 4E right now is that these guys are pleased with what they have done and are really truly having fun using it at the table.

 

[Charles Dunwoody]

I haven't posted much on a D&D site since Wizards cancelled D&D. This thread got me thinking, though.

When Wizards cancelled the magazines they had almost no internal staff posting on forums. We gamers were livid that they wouldn't talk, wouldn't answer our questions, wouldn't speak up.

Now the designers have blogs, which by nature are fairly informal. And now Wizards is getting blasted for not sharing enough and not giving professional previews.

While I hated the way Wizards handled the cancellations, I can start to see why they stayed quiet. They are now blogging and posting and now they aren't doing that right according to some customers.

I've read every review that has come out for 4th edition. None have rules in them but some, like the elf preview, have great story in them. Wizards used to get blasted for too many mechanics and no story and now the previews get blasted if they have too much story in them.

To me, the blogs show the designers are real people and real gamers. They play other games besides D&D and they play D&D a lot.

I'm going to give Wizards a chance to provide more info. The designers have already stated they won't reveal the exact details on race and class because of the preview books coming out.

So we have to wait. And since they are sharing some details with us, finally, I'm okay with that decision. At least I have a timeframe now.