Are the flaming burst properties ever really worth it?

[Cheiromancer]

Isn't the burst better in cases where a monster has DR or immunity to critical hits, though?

-Hyp.

Hmmm. Bursts do normal damage even against undead and constructs, don't they? I can't remember where it says that, but your question wouldn't make sense unless that were the case.

Suppose a fighter 9 attacks a Cloud Giant Skeleton (AC 13, DR 5/bludgeoning) with a +2 flaming longspear wielded two-handed. The fighter has a 22 Strength (16 base, +2 level up, +4 belt) and Improved Critical but no weapon focus feats. He power attacks for 5 so he misses only on a 1 (BAB 9 + 6 strength + 2 enhancement - 5 = +12 vs AC 13) and does (1d8 + 9 strength + 10 PA + 2 enhancement + 1d6 fire = 1d8 + 21 +1d6 fire = 29 points). Oh, DR counts, so it is only 1d8 + 16 + 1d6 fire = 24 points. Times 95% is 22.8 damage.

With a +1 flaming burst longspear he'll use one less point of power attack, so the damage from non-crits (attack rolls of 2 to 18) will be (1d8 + 14 + 1d6 = 22). (I subtracted the DR this time) He misses on a 1. On a roll of 19-20 there will be a critical (average damage 1d8 + 14 + 1d6 + 2d10 = 33 ) 95% of the time; the other 5% of the time the critical won't be confirmed at the damage will only be 22.

So 0.85 x 22 + 0.10 x (0.95 x 33 + 0.05 x 22) = 18.7 + 0.10 x (31.35 + 1.1) = 18.7 + 3.245 = 21.945

So nope. Against a crit-immune creature with DR, the +2 flaming longspear is still better.

There is probably some case where flaming burst is better, but not in this case.

Unless I've screwed up the math somehow?

 

[XCorvis]

I feel like the burst property is underpowered for a +2, so I allow them to burst against creatures immune to crits, like undead. If you roll the crit and confirm it, the burst goes off, but the creature doesn't take the rest of the crit damage - just normal weapon damage plus the energy from the burst. This makes it a bit more useful and desirable, as well as providing a somewhat unique ability.

 

[pallandrome]

I have but one thing to say on this matter:

Hunter's Mercy + Thundering + Longbow = WIN

 

[Plane Sailing]

If I might move the comparison from your original example to something perhaps more representative of the underlying problem...

I think it can be more interesting to compare a +1 flaming frost weapon (+3 equivalent) to a +1 flaming burst weapon (+3 equivalent). Both cost the same, both have the same chance to hit, but the first one is doing an average 7 damage from +2d6 damage with every strike, the latter is doing an average of +3.5 + .55 = +4.05 damage with every strike (1d6 flaming + 10% chance (optimistically) of doing +1d10 damage.

I don't think that energy resistances are worth including in the calculation unless the entire campaign is all about fighting fiends or foes which characteristically have elemental resistance baked in; it would have a small effect in normal adventuring but not much I'd wager (and then just compare flaming burst with holy...)

So what damage would the flaming burst have to do on a crit to get its average damage up to equivalent +2 enhancement levels?

So the flaming burst longsword gets the normal +3.5 from flaming, and then crits (optimistically) 10% of the time, so 10d6 damage (average 35) turning up 10% of the time would round the overall expected damage up to +7 per round.

I can't imagine many DM's going for a 10d6 burst weapon though (and worse with higher crit multiples!). What about the best likely case? Keen rapier, threatens on 15-20, so optimistically could crit as much as 30% of the time, so about +3d6 damage 30% of the time would be very roughly equivalent to +1d6 all the time. How would you feel about burst weapons doing +3d6 damage (or more)?

 

[James McMurray]

I feel like the burst property is underpowered for a +2, so I allow them to burst against creatures immune to crits, like undead. If you roll the crit and confirm it, the burst goes off, but the creature doesn't take the rest of the crit damage - just normal weapon damage plus the energy from the burst. This makes it a bit more useful and desirable, as well as providing a somewhat unique ability.

WotC does it that way too.

 

[Hypersmurf]

There is probably some case where flaming burst is better, but not in this case.

Fair enough

The consistent 3 points outweighs the occasional 11 points; two-handed Power Attack has powered up the vanilla enhancement bonus significantly.

I feel like the burst property is underpowered for a +2, so I allow them to burst against creatures immune to crits, like undead.

So do the core rules

Magic Weapons and Critical Hits: Some weapon qualities and some specific weapons have an extra effect on a critical hit. This special effect functions against creatures not subject to critical hits, such as undead, elementals, and constructs. When fighting against such creatures, roll for critical hits as you would against humanoids or any other creature subject to critical hits. On a successful critical roll, apply the special effect, but do not multiply the weapon’s regular damage.

-Hyp.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I feel like the burst property is underpowered for a +2, so I allow them to burst against creatures immune to crits, like undead. If you roll the crit and confirm it, the burst goes off, but the creature doesn't take the rest of the crit damage - just normal weapon damage plus the energy from the burst. This makes it a bit more useful and desirable, as well as providing a somewhat unique ability.

That's just the standard rules DMG p222 top of second column.

 

[Nazhkandrias]

I'd have to say that it's really not worth it with any weapon. Take a fighter with Improved Critical (Falchion). A +1 Flaming Burst Falchion? Seems frightening. The threat range is 15-20/x2, meaning that there's about a 1/4 chance for a critical hit. Compare total (average) damage over 20 strikes with a +2 Flaming Falchion with a +1 Flaming Burst Falchion (remember, a Falchion does 2-8 damage, so average damage is around 5 per swing. This assumes every attack hits, naturally)...

The formula is as follows - Average Weapon Damage For 15 Strikes + Average Critical Damage For 5 Strikes + Average Flaming Damage For 20 Strikes + Average Burst Damage (Skipped For Non-Burst Weapon) For 5 Strikes + Enhancement Bonus Damage For 20 Strikes

+2 Flaming Falchion w/ Improved Critical
Equation - 15(5) + 5(10) + 20(3.5) + 40
Total Damage Over 20 Hits - About 235 damage
Average Damage Per Attack - About 11.75 damage

+1 Flaming Burst Falchion w/ Improved Critical
Equation - 15(5) + 5(10) + 20(3.5) + 5(4.5) + 20
Total Damage Over 20 Hits - About 237.5 damage
Average Damage Per Attack - About 11.875 damage

This leaves us with... 2.5 more damage. To sacrifice a +1 on EVERY attack to hit. Not worth it, even in this "best case" scenario. Even against creatures susceptible to fire, I'd take that bonus to hit anyday. For people who have "lucky dice", a burst attack is good, but for others, no. Not at all.

Now, depending on the environment, you might have a lot of monsters susceptible to fire. In an arctic environment, a Flaming weapon is invaluable. But the burst? Not so much. A lot of frost monsters have high AC, so that +1 bonus to hit really helps. Or, you could grab another special ability for that bonus, say a +1 Flaming Giantbane Falchion (for hunting frost giants), or maybe get a +1 Keen Flaming Falchion to save a feat.

Any way you look at it, the +1 cost of Flaming Burst (or almost any Burst, for that matter) is better spent elsewhere. Even if it does hit creatures immune to critical hits... they tend to be constructs and the like, with stratospheric natural armor. I'd rather hit more in the first place with an enhancement bonus or Bane.

 

[pallandrome]

Speaking as someone who rutenily plays a fighter, I usually hit on 2's after, say, level 5. This is when the Burst lone of enchantments get better for a crit build.

EDIT: God, that was the worst spelling of a word I've seen in a long while. ROUTINELY. There. I'm just going to look at that abomination fo a spellcheck and let it seep into my brain that inflicted such a travesty upon the unwitting public...wow. I just suck so much.

DOUBLY EDIT: I misspelled "of". And looking back at this line, I misspelled "double". Screw it, I'm off to bed.

 

[Hypersmurf]

DOUBLY EDIT: I misspelled "of". And looking back at this line, I misspelled "double". Screw it, I'm off to bed.

You also misspelled "line" in the first paragraph

-Hyp.