Are the flaming burst properties ever really worth it?

[Stalker0]

Thought this would be a good thought experiment.

Let's compare a +1 flaming burst longspear (1d8, x3) vs a +2 flaming longspear. We will assume improved critical, so a 19-20 crit range. Also for purposes of this, attack rolls don't matter. A roll of 19-20 will crit.

+1 flaming burst longspear.
Noncrit: Avg Damage of 9
Crit: Avg Damage of 31
Total Avg: 11.2

+2 flaming longspear
Noncrit: Avg Damage of 10
Crit: Avg Damage of 23
Total Avg: 11.3

So in this scenario, giving critical hits every advantage in the world, they don't even compare to the +1 they replace. Now, lets go to the big crit, the scythe, and see what happens. Again assuming improved critical:

+1 flaming burst scythe
Noncrit: Avg Damage of 9.5
Crit: 44
Total Avg: 12.95

+2 flaming scythe
Noncrit: 10.5
Crit: 31.5
Total Avg: 12.6

So in the absolute best care scenario, the burst property is just squeaking by. Feel free to check my numbers for errors, but if they are right I think it leaves little doubt that the burst properties are mechanically worthless.

 

[pawsplay]

So in this scenario, giving critical hits every advantage in the world, they don't even compare to the +1 they replace.[/quote]

Oh? They look to be virtually identical, which I think we would be the goal.

 

[Cheiromancer]

So in this scenario, giving critical hits every advantage in the world, they don't even compare to the +1 they replace.

Oh? They look to be virtually identical, which I think we would be the goal.

No. An enhancement bonus is better in cases where a monster has fire immunity or resistance. Which I think is a lot more common than fire vulnerability. The flaming burst would have to have a bit of a lead in order for it to be worth considering.

Besides, conditions are rarely so ideal for criticals. In a more realistic situation the value of the critical would be less.

 

[Stalker0]

Oh? They look to be virtually identical, which I think we would be the goal.

They are identical in a made up scenario where critical hits have all the advantages. For instance, if you are fighting monsters with a high AC, there's a decent chance that you will not confirm the crit. In my model I assumed all crit threats were hits, which is hardly the case most of the time.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No. An enhancement bonus is better in cases where a monster has fire immunity or resistance.

Isn't the burst better in cases where a monster has DR or immunity to critical hits, though?

-Hyp.

 

[pawsplay]

Burst is better when the creature is vulnerable to an energy type; in that case, it is radically efficient. It is more effective when a creature cannot regenerate fire or acid.

 

[frankthedm]

Are the flaming burst properties ever really worth it?

On the 18-20 crit weapons after taking improved crit, yes.

With the x3 and x4 weapons? Rarely unless you fight foes with so many HPs that they are still standing up after x3 and x4 crits. That is the real liability of x3 and x4 crit weapons, they are overkill.

2x crits can show up often enough to be usefull, dropping the foe that needed the dropping. x3 or x4 crits are more likely than not to be wasted on the mook who will have had died to a x2 crit rather than killing a BBEG with the lucky hit.

 

[Klaus]

Yeah, run numbers for +1 flaming burst rapier and +2 flaming rapier with Improved Critical. I'd like to see that.

 

[frankthedm]

Yeah, run numbers for +1 flaming burst rapier and +2 flaming rapier with Improved Critical. I'd like to see that.

And make them small!

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

Burst weapons are generally "nicer" on ranged weapons - as opposed to hand to hand weapons. Also, for upper order Warrior types, if that third or fourth attack hits, it's got a good chance of threatening a critical. Furthermore, this is the kind of enchantment you put on a X3 weapon, not a x2 deal.


IMC, I have a house rule called Chain criticals, as a compromise in lieu of an "instant kill". If you beat your opponent's AC by 20, you threaten a critical. On a successful critical "Confirmation" roll or "Auto-Crit", increase the foe's AC by 20 and roll again - if you succeed, tack on another x2 per D&D multiplication - repeat until it fails.

My house rule works quite nicely with "burst" weapons, and if anything - getting that x5 critical from the longbow becomes a "memorable moment" in the combat. When its a +5 str adjusting sonic burst weapon in the hands of the barbarian... 5d8+50 + 5d6 sonic from a warrior type is SWEEET. It levels the battlefield - the "heavy arty" has a little something to worry about called getting countershelled.