Are we gamers an ungrateful lot?

[Glyfair]

Guys, while I understand an occasional topic drift, I'd like to request not discussing Chaos Disciple's opinions (that aren't on topic, except perhaps as an example of what I'm discussing) in this thread.

Thanks.

 

[Obryn]

I support both Digital and Paper for differnt reasons

Paper- Books are actual products which are worth buying based on quality of content and materials its made from. I would like to see hemp paper used because the books would last alot longer.

Copyrighted material should be kept in books or at least a format thats semi-difficult to reproduce and distribute. But then some jokers invented a computer, scanner, and the internet. So now copyrights on anything that can be put into digital format is pretty much pointless.


Digital Media- is worthless as a marketable product becuse it has no physical substance and you are basically paying for nothing Especially when u have to use your own paper.

Ideas and game mechanics belong on digital media because they have always been free and digital is great for getting stuff like that to the public

(rewording since I replied before I read the Golden ModText)

Chaos Disciple, what is your profession? I get the feeling that you haven't worked in the real world from your posts, and hence doubt that you have the life experiences to engage in reasonable conversation about things like intellectual property.

-O

 

[AK Browncoat]

It's not a "we", I think. Some people find it easier to find the negative side of a situation, I think. *shrug*

Some? I think a majority. (in the context of the examples given w/green ronin, malhovic, etc)

How many "rant" threads do you see on a daily bassis Vs. a "rave" thread? Its pretty lop sided.

 

[Chaos Disciple]

You still did not answer my question from page 3 of this thread: Do you believe all software should be free since programming and code are essentially ideas, have no physical form, and require you to use your own computer.

In our digital age, many people have jobs that rely soley on their ideas and the virtual pixels on a screen. I am a programmer by trade, and I take ideas, algorithms and processes and combine them in a soup to give you a virtual experience, online.

Do you feel that because I do not produce hard goods that my work is valueless? Hardly, otherwise software development wouldn't be a well paid profession.


I am quite sure that many writers to it for the joy of producing, the storytelling, the cathartic process, the pleasure gained by knowing the reader's experience was positive.

But many ALSO write as a means providing for themselves or their families. There is nothing wrong with being creative AND making money at it.

I'll bet that RPG writers (pdf writers especially) are not doing it only for money. I hear that it's quite a struggle to comfortable lifestyle (let alone, survive) on RPG writing alone.

I guess I can sum this up by saying that I do believe ALL digital media (software including pdf. mp3, programs, games,) is worthless.

The labor done to create the original product has a physical result that is worth as much money as its original creator can get for it. Dont confuse the original product (digital or not) which has value (because it to real resourses to create and its the only one); with the computers digital copy of the work which has no value (because it can be freely replicated/distributed infinitly and effortlessly)



If you work in a proffession that produces digital media all I can say is that computers are not going anywhere and at the rate they advance you should hav many well paying opportunities for work in the future

I would also like to thank the people in this proffession because without all you computer programers the Digital Media were debating would not even exist. But you really need to fix the copy, paste, and send features every computer has if you didnt intend for people to use them.


An RPG writer is like any artist and I believe they should not be influanced by money or fame. I think it taints thier work and makes it more of a commercial product and less a work of art

 

[Chaos Disciple]

Actually, to a greater and greater extent, money itself is digital. I can pay bills online, for example. But if I tried to "duplicate" my online money, I think some people would have something to say about that, and I would soon be playing FATAL: The LARP in prison somewhere.

Digital money is extremly funny to me

But thats not a topic in this thread

 

[Chaos Disciple]

Each EN Publishing PDf costs roughly $1,000 to produce. That's an average. Death of a Demon Lord cost over $2,000 in total. We hire good writers, pay a good editor, contract good art and maps, pay an excellent layout/graphic design guy, and then pay RPGNow etc. a large commission to sell it for us.

By "us", of course, I mean "me". *I* pay for all that. Personally.

If I don't recoup that cost on each and every product, I am losing money. My money. The stuff I use to pay for my house, my food, my car. The supermarkets have this irritating habit of asking me for money when I try to remove edible foodstuffs from their premises.

Fortunately, enough people place a value on what I produce that I haven't died yet, and EN World, which in a "worthless" and non-physical manner (which costs me $450 per month just to host) allows you to post this opinion, still exists.

If my output has no value, and I am not paid for this, then I don't produce any more. I can't, 'cos I'm destitute. And starving.

Your "ideas" dry up pretty quickly when nobody is producing them.

Digital media has value. You'll find that out if you buy one of my PDFs for $5, and sell 1,000 of them. The courts - as manifested by large bailiffs - will make that value very clear to you, whether you agree with it or not.

And I'll be able to eat.

Hi Morrus


You are an artist and a pioneer in the Digital craft. I totally love and respect your efforts to create a place we can share ideas.

Your personal sacrifice makes me appreiciate ENworld even more and I completely understand what one will do for the love of their craft.

I cant tell you how to make money with a website but I would compare you to a good RPG writer who does what they love to do and thinks about the money and fame later. Unfortunatly this can lead to the money problems you discribed and somtimes great art is lost because the artist has to get a real job.


[Edit]- ld like to add that I was refering to the computers ability to duplicate a a pdf. not any desire I would have to do so.

Just thought id clear that up.

 

[Roudi]

Digital money is extremly funny to me

Strange.

I've done work for publishers in this industry, as well as sold my own PDFs. In both cases I was paid with "digital money." I then cashed out some of that digital money through my bank account and received real money. Is this odd?

Even better, other portions of that digital money were contributed to ENWorld. Thousands of others did so as well. Because of these contributions, ENWorld is able to function. Funny?

Get with the 21st century. "Digital" does not mean "insubstantial". I'm certain if I were to wipe your hard drive right now, you would most certainly feel the loss of so much "insubstantial" and "easily distributed" data.

 

[Arkhandus]

....There's no way this topic can get anywhere if people keep encouraging Chaos Disciple's repetitive stating of his opinion. I've given up; he's not paying attention and just wants to defend his own position.

On-topic....

Yeah, gamers are an ungrateful bunch sometimes, but I don't think it's any more common amongst gamers than it is amongst other folks. People these days have too strong a sense of entitlement and lazyness. Why work for something when you can squirm your way into getting it for free somehow? -_-

 

[Roudi]

The irony, though, is that there are some demonstratable instances where even the free stuff gets complaints. Huge WTF factor.

Surprisingly, I never really got complaints about MODERNIZED when it was free, only when I decided to stop producing it. Either we were doing something right, or we just weren't popular enough to attract the oddball freebie griper.

 

[the Jester]

On the original topic: I think people in general tend to be thoughtless and ungrateful wretches. :\ However, we are able to overcome this general tendency to become thoughtful, gracious ladies and gentlemen.

Unfortunately, such overcoming usually requires some social skills. So some gamers (for as with any population, some gamers have poor social skills) are less prone to do so. These types are usually the ones who make the most noise.