D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Reynard]

Your guys adamant refusal to see the game in any terms other than "Spells, which can do anything" and "Only stuff Paul Blart Mall Cop could attempt" baffles me.

What are you on about? You have all these imaged in your head but you haven't given them positions in the game, so it is hard to determine what your goal is.

"Do cool stuff in combat" doesn't mean anything. Tell me what you actually want. Do you want to expend limited resources for powerful strikes? Do you want to "power up bar" style system so you unlock cool things later in the fight? Do you want disarm opponents, or do you want to turn them to stone with a strike? Be specific and people won't assume things about what you want.

 

[Giant Octopodes]

See, I want situational maneuvers as a player. I really hate rationing per rest resources, so I rarely play casters. But I like deciding whether to use Reckless Attack, or how to get sneak attack when caught out in the open, or if I should shove instead of attack. Knowing I can use all of them as often as I want. I want these kinds of mechanics because they are fun for me as a player.

I genuinely don’t understand the attitude of “BS hoops to prevent martials from having cool things.” I wouldn’t play D&D if I were as bitter and cynical as that sounds.

I wouldn't mind that sense of choosing against a tradeoff either, if done well. For example - you can Attack, or you can Shove / Disarm / Trip, or you can Attack with a Shove / Disarm / Trip attached, but at disadvantage (can't choose this if you already are attacking at a disadvantage). Something like that seems easily managed, rewards those who have gained advantage but prevents things from getting out of hand by having those effects on a stick And advantage on the roll, and gives meaningful tactical choices each round. Note that I'm not at all saying that would be the concept "done well", mind you, I haven't playtested that proposal at all, just giving it as a hypothetical example.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I wouldn't mind that sense of choosing against a tradeoff either, if done well. For example - you can Attack, or you can Shove / Disarm / Trip, or you can Attack with a Shove / Disarm / Trip attached, but at disadvantage (can't choose this if you already are attacking at a disadvantage). Something like that seems easily managed, rewards those who have gained advantage but prevents things from getting out of hand by having those effects on a stick And advantage on the roll, and gives meaningful tactical choices each round. Note that I'm not at all saying that would be the concept "done well", mind you, I haven't playtested that proposal at all, just giving it as a hypothetical example.

I could totally get on board with powerful effects gated behind an attack with disadvantage. Then you could try to get advantage to at least cancel out and make the attack normally.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Soooo…you want spells in everything but name?

So here's the thing:

This is not helpful because...

The game design reality is... yes. People want discreet abilities with defined functions and effects that can be reliably accessed in the game. That model of ability has been coopted into just being for 'spells' and there's no actual reason for that aside from preference.

BUT

The in universe reality, and the one this question typically is aimed at implying, is... no. People aren't asking for fighters to gain actual magical powers expressed in the form of a literally editing of reality or channeling of energy.

And the reason it's not helpful is because asking this question in this way tries to imply that people who want A actually want B and CHECKMATE, they want fighters to be literal wizards instead of mage characters who can do things.

 

[Bill Zebub]

So here's the thing:

This is not helpful because...

The game design reality is... yes. People want discreet abilities with defined functions and effects that can be reliably accessed in the game. That model of ability has been coopted into just being for 'spells' and there's no actual reason for that aside from preference.

BUT

The in universe reality, and the one this question typically is aimed at implying, is... no. People aren't asking for fighters to gain actual magical powers expressed in the form of a literally editing of reality or channeling of energy.

And the reason it's not helpful is because asking this question in this way tries to imply that people who want A actually want B and CHECKMATE, they want fighters to be literal wizards instead of mage characters who can do things.

I was more referring to it just feeling boring and unimaginative (my opinion) to have these non-magical abilities work just like magical abilities.

I would so much rather use mechanics that are completely different, so that using them feels completely different. Otherwise…why distinguish it as non-magical? So that it can be used in an anti magic field?

 

[Vaalingrade]

I would so much rather use mechanics that are completely different, so that using them feels completely different. Otherwise…why distinguish it as non-magical? So that it can be used in an anti magic field?

Somewhere in the abyss of D&D fandom, 'feel' and flavor became disconnected and that's a shame.

You distinguish them for the flavor. It's different for me to punch a dude so hard he flies fifty feet then to fling him with TK, for example.

I mean antimagic fields are in that part of the game 'no one' plays anyway, right?

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I don’t think it’s a hyperbole to look back at the playtest of 5e and realize that the player base has MASSIVELY shifted since that time and that the attitude of the playtesters might not 100% reflect those current players. There’s plenty of new players that might have looked differently at stuff that got shot down back then.

I think that is a good point. The player base for the One playtest is much larger and likely different from the one that participated i the Next playtest.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

See, I want situational maneuvers as a player. I really hate rationing per rest resources, so I rarely play casters. But I like deciding whether to use Reckless Attack, or how to get sneak attack when caught out in the open, or if I should shove instead of attack. Knowing I can use all of them as often as I want. I want these kinds of mechanics because they are fun for me as a player.

I genuinely don’t understand the attitude of “BS hoops to prevent martials from having cool things.” I wouldn’t play D&D if I were as bitter and cynical as that sounds.

Again, this suggestion lets you do both. The X per rest just means you aren't entirely at the mercy of RNG to get the opening.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

They didn't. 5e does not play like an MMO and the fights don't play like trash mobs.

Oh, it absolutely does, in the worst way. 5E combat is all bust assured that the player's win, and most fights are there as resource attrition time wasters. There's essentially no risk of death unless the DM just decides to kill a character by hitting them while downed twice, in which case there's little that can be done about it due to the anemic in combat healing options.

 

[Maxperson]

Oh, it absolutely does, in the worst way. 5E combat is all bust assured that the player's win, and most fights are there as resource attrition time wasters. There's essentially no risk of death unless the DM just decides to kill a character by hitting them while downed twice, in which case there's little that can be done about it due to the anemic in combat healing options.

In the last two campaigns I've had 4 PC deaths, none of which involved me hitting a PC while he was down. On one the player didn't take the time to remove a worm from a Spawn of Kyuss, one died to a Banshee wail that knocked 3 of the 4 PCs to 0 hit points, one died when he hung around an area by himself with an invisible monster that had just given the entire party a hard time, and one died when the party went after the BBEG while low on resources. There have also been numerous near deaths.

The key is not to create the caster superiority problem by not running 6-8 encounters before a long rest.