D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Maxperson]

If the alternative OPTIONAL rule actually fixes an issue then it should be the actual rule and not the optional one!

I agree.

 

[Maxperson]

So having less than 6-8 combat encounters per day is a GM screw-up?

Absolutely. The game is balanced for that number of encounters and if you run less, the balance issues that arise are the DM's fault for not running the expected number.

That does not seem to be Wizards of the Coast’s position, as most of the anthology adventures seem to have fewer than 6-8 combat encounters.

The few I've seen have a lot of encounters close together.

 

[Maxperson]

To be fair, I'd much rather simply have the game be unbalanced and no one play martials rather than try to force 6-8 encounters between every long rest. It's just too restrictive for most narratives outside of site-based crawls.

Or make long rest recovery happen weekly, not daily.

 

[Gammadoodler]

To be fair, that might be an actual possibility. Suppose OneD&D comes out, and the classes are balanced around a 4-5 combats a day, with 1 short rest.

Now, under the variant rule, the short rest classes are relatively stronger, since their abilities recharge every day, and the long rest classes are relatively weaker, since they are stretching abilities meant for 4-5 combats across all combats in the entire week.

Or.. you ditch the 6-8 encounter structure.

We've already established that running the game that way is a matter of mechanical balance, not narrative preference.

Note: I'm not sure the given example is a fix exactly, certainly not for the 5mwd. The point is that whatever the fix is, it should make it so that you don't need 6-8 encounters per long rest anymore to balance classes' capabilities.

I'm not sure what mechanism should be used to get to that balance. Quantity of encounters seems problematic since it's much more subject to table variation, but I appreciate the appeal of the resource minigame.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Note: I'm not sure the given example is a fix exactly, certainly not for the 5mwd. The point is that whatever the fix is, it should make it so that you don't need 6-8 encounters per long rest anymore to balance classes' capabilities.

It's not really a fix in the sense that it allows for all narrative encounter pacing with little effect on class balance.

What it does is shift the "MUST DO THIS" to 6-8 encounters per week. So now, if you do happen to have 2 dungeon crawlly days within the same week it's borked the other way!

I admit it's probably still a better default than RAW for a lot of tables but it's again not good design if balance hangs on a particular narrative pacing.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Or.. you ditch the 6-8 encounter structure.

Not disagreeing, but say for the sake of argument you ditch a prescribed number of encounters per day. It seems to me that if you do this, you need to standardize resource recovery across classes.

As long as you have some no resource recharge, some short resource recharge and some long resource recharge classes, the total number of encounters per day will have an impact on game balance.

That seems to have been a bridge too far back in 4e days, though personally, I didn’t have a problem with it.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Absolutely. The game is balanced for that number of encounters and if you run less, the balance issues that arise are the DM's fault for not running the expected number.

If the game requires 6-8 encounters per day to be balanced, why is this so rare in WotC’s books? I don’t own Saltmarsh, but both Candlekeep and Citadel tend to be closer to 4-5 combat encounters rather than 6-8.

The few I've seen have a lot of encounters close together.

What difference does it make if the encounters are close together? Wouldn’t that just penalize the short rest classes in favour of the long rest classes?

 

[Minigiant]

Not disagreeing, but say for the sake of argument you ditch a prescribed number of encounters per day. It seems to me that if you do this, you need to standardize resource recovery across classes.

I disagree.

The problem is 8 is too high.

Balancing one class to have 8 things, one for each encounter with another class that has 2 things, one per each encounter is the source of the problem.

 

[Undrave]

I disagree.

The problem is 8 is too high.

Balancing one class to have 8 things, one for each encounter with another class that has 2 things, one per each encounter is the source of the problem.

If they went down to a manageable 2-4 encounters a day (with 1 short rest as default), not only would it be easier to balance, but Spellcasters wouldn't need so many spell slots and would actually be easier to handle by players.

 

[Maxperson]

Or.. you ditch the 6-8 encounter structure.

You can't in 5e. It's too ingrained. Fixing it would 1) requires such a radical change to both class and monster design that you would have 6e, and 2) would destroy any semblance of backwards compatibility as nothing prior to the change would work properly.

We've already established that running the game that way is a matter of mechanical balance, not narrative preference.

Absolutely. I've spoken to no one that likes it narratively.

Note: I'm not sure the given example is a fix exactly, certainly not for the 5mwd. The point is that whatever the fix is, it should make it so that you don't need 6-8 encounters per long rest anymore to balance classes' capabilities.

How does it not fix the 5 minute work day? What is the group going to do? Using valuable spell slots on a mansion doesn't get your spells back. It just costs you a slot. And anywhere you go, encounters happen. Dungeons. Other planes. Cities. Outside.

I'm not sure what mechanism should be used to get to that balance. Quantity of encounters seems problematic since it's much more subject to table variation, but I appreciate the appeal of the resource minigame.

They would have to go back to the way prior editions were balanced or come up with something new. Right now it's balanced around hit points, damage and resource management.

I think this problem was brought on by bounded accuracy. Before you could have a monster with lower hit points and damage ability, because spell resistance and/or high armor classes kept it alive.