D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Maxperson]

If you change to a different foe to get more damage you are giving up action economy. That is generally not a wise choice.

I disagree. You can move and get full attacks and it's better for you to take huge chunks out of their hit points and let the fighter do clean up with his attacks, taking the enemies down. You get much better use of your smites and the monsters drop faster. I

It's a team game, the party should play like a team.

That depends entirely on what you are fighting. If you are fighting kobolds almost every single smite die you use is going to be mostly wasted.

If you're fighting kobolds you are likely level 1-3 and have very few smites. It doesn't matter anyway. So the fighter is better when you are fighting small, weak enemies and the paladin better at tougher ones. It's give and take, which is fine. Classes can be better than one another under different circumstances. That's the game working well as far as I'm concerned.

Overall, though, once you get past level 2, you tend to find a lot of monsters with significant numbers of hit points and the paladin can use his educated guesses to maximize his smites.

 

[ECMO3]

I disagree. You can move and get full attacks and it's better for you to take huge chunks out of their hit points and let the fighter do clean up with his attacks, taking the enemies down. You get much better use of your smites and the monsters drop faster. I

If you leave a wounded enemy to attack another enemy so as to maximize your smite damage, that is an extra opportunity attack plus an extra action the enemy gets. Then you have 2 wounded enemies and next round you move to attack a third to maximize your smite and now you are up to 2 more actions by the first enemy, an action by the 2nd enemy and two AOOs.

If you're fighting kobolds you are likely level 1-3. It doesn't matter anyway. So the fighter is better when you are fighting small, weak enemies and the paladin better at tougher ones. It's give and take, which is fine. Classes can be better than one another under different circumstances. That's the game working well as far as I'm concerned.

It was an example to illustrate my point. You are lmited in the number of attacks you make and you are limited in the numbers of enemies you can use them on.

If you are fighting single bosses with lots of hit points it is easier to land more of that damage, but at 11th level even if you land all of it you are not outrunning a fighter by much if any at all.

 

[Maxperson]

If you leave a wounded enemy to attack another enemy so as to maximize your smite damage, that is an extra opportunity attack plus an extra action the enemy gets. Then you have 2 wounded enemies and next round you move to attack a third to maximize your smite and now you are up to 2 more actions by the first enemy, an action by the 2nd enemy and two AOOs.

Why are you assuming that the paladin went last in the round and the enemy will ever get to attack again? There are 4 people in the typical party and that leave up to 3 people to take care of the very wounded one. Paladins are also fairly heavily armored and an opportunity attack to shorten the fight by devastating another enemy is often worth it. Plus, very often the paladin won't even have to leave a creature to reach another one, so no attack of opportunity at all. In the event that the paladin is going last in the round, then it may well be worth it to smite with a level 1 slot or opt not to smite at all and finish off the creature.

You are lmited in the number of attacks you make and you are limited in the numbers of enemies you can use them on.

Maybe, but probably not. There are usually multiple enemies to pick from. Even if there is only one big one, you just risk doing too much damage with one smite at the end of the fight, which will be a very low level slot since you KNOW the enemy is close to death and aren't foolish enough to use a higher slot for the final attacks.

 

[ECMO3]

Why are you assuming that the paladin went last in the round and the enemy will ever get to attack again? There are 4 people in the typical party and that leave up to 3 people to take care of the very wounded one.

If they don't have wounded ones of their own, why are you assuming that the enemy you are leaving doesn't go next .... or that your party members will manage to hit them

also you can turn this upside down too, maybe your wizaerrd is about to lay Hold Person on several of them so you don't want him focusing on wounded ones.

Maybe, but probably not. There are usually multiple enemies to pick from. Even if there is only one big one, you just risk doing too much damage with one smite at the end of the fight, which will be a very low level slot since you KNOW the enemy is close to death and aren't foolish enough to use a higher slot for the final attacks.

The difference between your weakest smite and your most poweful smite is 9hp. It is going to be rare that you will know hps with that much accuracy, especially against a high-hp boss.

4 ghasts as an example is between a "medium" and "hard" encounter for a single Paladin at 11th level, or alternatively it is your share of foes in a medium encounter. If have 6 of those fights a day you are going to be hard pressed to land all your smite damage and if you switch from one to the other to another to make it work there are going to be a ton more actions they will have.

And keep in mind the Paladin is not way ahead of the fighter at this level. The fighter has 33 more attacks a day, even if every single smite lands for full damage, the fighter only has to be doing 11 damage per hit to still beat him (assuming 2/3rds hit). That is if every single smite die actually lands for full damage. At 11th level a duelist with a longsword should be averaging 11.5, before you consider any additional riders from subclass or his extra feat. So he is ahead even if the Paladin never wastes damage.

 

[FrozenNorth]

4 ghasts as an example is between a "medium" and "hard" encounter for a single Paladin at 11th level, or alternatively it is your share of foes in a medium encounter. If have 6 of those fights a day you are going to be hard pressed to land all your smite damage and if you switch from one to the other to another to make it work there are going to be a ton more actions they will have.

Ghasts are undead, so each of the paladin’s smites are doing a bonus 1d8 radiant damage.

 

[Maxperson]

If they don't have wounded ones of their own, why are you assuming that the enemy you are leaving doesn't go next .... or that your party members will manage to hit them

also you can turn this upside down too, maybe your wizaerrd is about to lay Hold Person on several of them so you don't want him focusing on wounded ones.

Sure, non-white room battle changes things. More often than not, though, the paladin's knowledge of the enemies hit points will keep him from making any big errors.

The difference between your weakest smite and your most poweful smite is 9hp. It is going to be rare that you will know hps with that much accuracy, especially against a high-hp boss.

It's actually really easy to track high hit point boss remaining hit points. Damage doesn't show until 50%, so anyone even half paying attention will know that the wizard hit for 33, the paladin hit twice for 37, and the fighter hit twice for 23 and that caused cuts and bruises. You know right then that the boss hit 50% at 71-93 damage. You won't know exactly, but you can gauge when he's getting close to death and adjust.

And keep in mind the Paladin is not way ahead of the fighter at this level. The fighter has 33 more attacks a day, even if every single smite lands for full damage, the fighter only has to be doing 11 damage per hit to still beat him (assuming 2/3rds hit). That is if every single smite die actually lands for full damage. At 11th level a duelist with a longsword should be averaging 11.5, before you consider any additional riders from subclass or his extra feat. So he is ahead even if the Paladin never wastes damage.

Since we're discussing 11th level, did you include the 1d8 extra damage on all paladin hits from Improved Divine Smite?

 

[ECMO3]

Since we're discussing 11th level, did you include the 1d8 extra damage on all paladin hits from Improved Divine Smite?

Yes, or more accurately Capn Kobold did. The total smite damage including 10 slots plus 1d8 on every hit comes out to 57d8 smite damage over the course of the day. With the fighter having 33 more attacks (and 22 more hits) that comes out to 11 damage per hit the fighter needs to do to beat that.

Without the improved divine smite each of the fighters hits would only need to do 4 damage to keep him ahead at 11th level.