Are you excited about the Forgotten Realms setting changes?

[Fenes]

You can just ignore what a few people/writers have chosen to do and keep going with your ongoing FR campaign (about 18 years for me) as I am – Elminster was slain a while ago by Asmodeus around the time of the Yamun Kahan (horde) invasion, and Drizzt has been working the streets of Calimport as rough trade for years.

I have always thought the Zhentarim were lame – they don't exist and a bunch of other tweaks.

I hate when writers come along with a novel or adventure/module and completely decimate the flavour/premise/canon etc of a campaign setting – Faction War, The Prism Pentad etc.

…Ptui!

I already haven't used much of the 3E changes, but some of them I had on a backburner, as possible plots with variable outcomes. Most of the 4E changes we know about don't fall into the "useful for my campaign" category.

 

[Steely Dan]

I already haven't used much of the 3E changes

I wasn't even aware of any 3rd Ed changes for FR.

Was it that Thundering business and what not?

Time of Troubles made me ill…

 

[Fenes]

Return of Shade, Death of King Azoun, Thunder Twin stuff, Elven Renaissance - all things that didn't happen in my Realms.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I would prefer to have a ration discussion with you instead of being attacked unecessarily.

I wish I believed you on that, but from the whole tone of your post, which seems to me (note I am biased!) entirely irrational and about your hurt feelings rather than anything rational (unlike Devyn and Hussar). I can't help you with your hurt feelings. The huge irony in your complaint is that you've consistently ignored everything I've said about being an ex-FR fan.

A lot of the other stuff you've posted seems to be entirely opinion-based, rather than based on rational argument. I'd go through it, but good grief, there's a lot of it. Suffice to say, numbers that you don't even hint at the source of are intriguing, but ultimately unhelpful without the source and/or a little more discussion of what you're implying.

As for internet polls, well, a lot of it is about the wording an options of the poll. I know this because many times in the past I've manipulated poll results by choosing the wording, options and poll order carefully For example with this poll we had a lot of negative options, and only one really positive option. Several people, including me, commented that "our" option wasn't there. Combine that with the fact that this is a specialist D&D forum, where "casual" D&D players do not typically post, and I think that the poll is interesting, but not necessarily revelatory.

 

[Najo]

I wish I believed you on that, but from the whole tone of your post, which seems to me (note I am biased!) entirely irrational and about your hurt feelings rather than anything rational (unlike Devyn and Hussar). I can't help you with your hurt feelings. The huge irony in your complaint is that you've consistently ignored everything I've said about being an ex-FR fan.

My tone has been fine and non-bias. No different than Devyn or Hussar. Hussar even agreed with my points and has backed up the poll. I have stated I have no hurt feelings and I am not personally affected by the Realms. My interests are business based, not emotional. You keep twisting everything I post into something else. I have pointed this out to you. Please stop.

A lot of the other stuff you've posted seems to be entirely opinion-based, rather than based on rational argument. I'd go through it, but good grief, there's a lot of it. Suffice to say, numbers that you don't even hint at the source of are intriguing, but ultimately unhelpful without the source and/or a little more discussion of what you're implying.

Again, more making objective statements into things they are not. I am not fueled by emotions in my posts. I could lay out sources for everything, but then that would take up alot thread space, be boring to most and at times reveal information I prefer to keep private. Your really the only person who seems to be making this discussion personal and attacking me. You keep taking my posts out of context too. Again, I wish you would please stop doing it before moderator shuts the thread down or bans you for a week. You seem like you have things to add to the discussion, but your methods are lacking diplomacy and you are reading negativity into statements that are not there. Plain and simple, I have stated my intentions and tone and you still say you don't believe me. That is your choice, but it is the reason we are having this problem.

As for internet polls, well, a lot of it is about the wording an options of the poll. I know this because many times in the past I've manipulated poll results by choosing the wording, options and poll order carefully For example with this poll we had a lot of negative options, and only one really positive option. Several people, including me, commented that "our" option wasn't there. Combine that with the fact that this is a specialist D&D forum, where "casual" D&D players do not typically post, and I think that the poll is interesting, but not necessarily revelatory.

Not every single possible poll choice can be represented, but the major choices are reflected. Most of the "missing" choices you referring to in the thread (like 3 of them) can fit into one of the choices on the poll and still give us fairly accurate look at the state of the fan base on ENworld. I repeat STATE OF THE FAN BASE ON ENWORLD!

This poll is not claiming to be the end all of the world's surveys, nor is it 100% proof of Forgotten Realms verring into self inflicted ruin. There is alot about the Forgotten Realms 4e setting we have yet to see. WOTC may have many more wonderful things within it, and we won't know until the book is in our hands if the new FR is better than the old one. This has been stated many times in this forum, by myself even. So I don't know where you are getting that I have some personal opinions and that I am some hurt FR fan or something. I already stated I am not a Realms fan, in fact I have never even read a Forgotten Realms novel and I played in a Forgotten Realms campaign for like 3 sessions. The realms is not quite my cup of tea. I was impressed with the scope of the setting though, and I have spoken with many of the fans over the years and understand why they love it. I personally was impressed with the work 3e did on organizing the Realms (props to Sean K Reynolds and crew). I have kept every design article on 3e's Realms creation, from changing the Thay Wizards to redoing the middle of the map. All very fascinating stuff to learn from.

As for whether or not a poll is accurate, no poll is a 100%. You have isolate your target market, word the questions right based on what you are measuring, you need to understand the environment you are polling within (i.e. a web forum, city street, workplace). Thing is, I wanted to get a perspective of the general vibe here on ENworld. Enworld reflects the D&D community a bit better than the WOTC forums as the community here is more mature and willing to contribute. Thing is, the percentages of who plays 3.0/3.5/4.0, who likes what campaign settings, who DMs and who plays, who uses the internet etc are roughly the same as on any D&D forum. This is because D&D is such a tight knit community of gamers who run in a niche market together. The results are going to be a fair snap shot of things to pay attention too.

In regards to polling D&D forums not representing the full market because not all D&D fans have internet access etc. Well, most of them do and a good percentage of them use the forums of either WOTC or here. I am willing to bet at least 2 out of 5 gamers from a single gaming group regularly browse the forums. I also am willing to bet that half of the DMs out there do as well.

That means, the only way to get a more accurate poll is to put survey cards in the books and then collect the data (which is not done immediately). Ironically, that only polls the people who return the cards...

Or.. we could poll the attendants of D&D experience or Gen Con or Origins...but that is skewed too.

We could go into game stores and poll all of the people walking through, but again, those online or dead guys aren't accounted for and a game store poll only reflects the people caught in that time. Some customers only come in once or twice a month.

So what option does that leave us? Well, by placing a poll online in the middle of traffic that is a fair sampling of most of the gamers, it gives us a picture of what is going on. It is no different than going out into nature and getting samples from an area for a test. As most D&D fans reflect there groups and a decent portion regularly uses the forums, then polls in these places do give helpful insight into the state of the industry.

If I still haven't made my point to you, I don't knwo what will. Please be constructive and less judgemental. If you don't like the thread and can't help but be rude to me then don't post in it. If you still feel the need to be rude and share it, then I will let the moderators deal with you. If you can be constructive and add to the discussion then you are welcome to join us.

Thank you for your understanding Ruin Explorer. I hope you take this constructively as it was intended. Peace.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Again, more making objective statements into things they are not.

I'm sorry, I don't see many "objective statements" in your post. This is not an attack, I just don't see them. I see a lot of subjective opinions, just like everyone else in this thread is posting.

I am not fueled by emotions in my posts. I could lay out sources for everything, but then that would take up alot thread space, be boring to most and at times reveal information I prefer to keep private.

There's some hardcore irony right there, because you're concerned about being "boring" and taking up "thread space", but you can devote an extremely long post to rebuking, yet you can't detail the sources, despite their important to making your argument "objective" as opposed "something some guy said on the internet". PM with the full details of your sources and information then, if you don't want to put them in the thread. That'll sort things out real quick.

Not every single possible poll choice can be represented, but the major choices are reflected.

Obviously, I disagree.

So what option does that leave us?

To create a better-worded, more thoughtful poll, with more positive options presented?

 

[Shazman]

Hey, don't bring actual logic concerning how businesses conduct their operations in here. You'll only get painted as a fanboy.

WotC fanboy. See, he was right. If the game products weren't seeling well, why would they even do a 4E Forgotten Realms? They killed evey other setting that wasn't a commercial success. Why would they give the Realms a second chance? It is my understanding that the Realms novels do quite well. I don't think that these changes bode well for the D&D or novel lines for the Forgotten Realms. If people buy Realms books to read stories set in the Realms, they probably won't be too interested in reading about an unrecognizable Realms. I know that I would have no interest in any post-Spellplague novels. Let's just change the name to Completely Forgotten Realms and be done with it.

 

[Najo]

I'm sorry, I don't see many "objective statements" in your post. This is not an attack, I just don't see them. I see a lot of subjective opinions, just like everyone else in this thread is posting.

First I want to state that I appreciate your much more constructive approach and you not using biting statements and general attacks on my character in your latest reply. There is a big difference in your overall approach here, and you are raising and asking questions instead of just blindly condeming and assuming. Thank you for that.

In reply to your qoute, my statements are objective because my position is one of studying the health of the industry without influencing. D&D 4e doing well, as is FR 4e doing well, is important to me and my business descisions. It could be argued that no perspective is objective, but mine is as much as one's could be. It would harm my work to not be so.

There's some hardcore irony right there, because you're concerned about being "boring" and taking up "thread space", but you can devote an extremely long post to rebuking, yet you can't detail the sources, despite their important to making your argument "objective" as opposed "something some guy said on the internet". PM with the full details of your sources and information then, if you don't want to put them in the thread. That'll sort things out real quick.

Except PM you doesn't keep my hard earned, sensitive research on sales figures and trends private. You and I do not personally know each other, you are not under any binding contracts with me or my company and anything I share with you privately is now in your hands to do with whatever you want. I may as well share the information in the thread because I will breaching NDAs I am under. Besides, even if I did post sources and how I collect market research, you could still state I am wrong or a liar. So either I am telling you the truth and you trust me or you don't believe me. Either way, it doesn't change much with the poll results or the comments about the setting made by the people within the thread.

Obviously, I disagree.

To create a better-worded, more thoughtful poll, with more positive options presented?

Ok, if you feel we could have put the poll together better, then in hindsight now, what would you do differently. Do not actually start another poll, just lay out the choices you would use and critique what is better about yours and what is wrong with ours where they differ.

Either way we get some where from here and move towards constructive discussion about the Forgotten Realms setting.

Anyrate, I felt it was worth taking the time to resolve our conflict because arguments just lead to so much unproductive time. It is much better to resolve concerns and understand each other's interests, then move forward in an agreeable manner.

Thanks again for taking the time to present your point of view in a more constructive fashion. I look forward to your input on the poll choices.

 

[Najo]

WotC fanboy. See, he was right. If the game products weren't seeling well, why would they even do a 4E Forgotten Realms? They killed evey other setting that wasn't a commercial success. Why would they give the Realms a second chance? It is my understanding that the Realms novels do quite well. I don't think that these changes bode well for the D&D or novel lines for the Forgotten Realms. If people buy Realms books to read stories set in the Realms, they probably won't be too interested in reading about an unrecognizable Realms. I know that I would have no interest in any post-Spellplague novels. Let's just change the name to Completely Forgotten Realms and be done with it.

WOTC is trying to remove what are called Barriers to Entry. Basically, anything that keeps a person new to a product/ game/ setting from trying it and becoming a long term customer. World of Warcraft is a good example of a game that has very few barriers to entry when you first start playing.

For example, in World of Warcraft complicated class and race combinations are broken down into simple step by step choices. 1) Choose horde or alliance 2) choose race 3) choose class 4) choose look. 5) choose name. It is kept visual and uncomplicated. Imagine what WOW would be like if you had both Horde and Alliance laid out at once or if did some complicated mixing and matching of race with class and then determine once playing if the character was viable. The game is streamlined and simplified to allow anyone able to use the basic functions of a computer to play.

When you start playing, the NPCs in the original starting areas guide you through the basics of game play without you realizing it. How to get quests, follow the ? and ! using you inventory, collecting drops and turning them in to npcs, doing combat, buying class skills, etc. The new areas where the Blood Elves and Draenai are not designed as well as the original areas for Undead, Humans, Elves and Tauren. The orc/ troll and dwarf/gnome areas suffer a little bit in this department, as there are some counter intuitive parts.

Then each level block (1-5, 6-10, 11-15, etc) takes you into a new section of the game. You progressively learn about talents, skills, open regions, multi part quests, multi region quests, etc.

The areas where players hit speed bumps are grouping for dungeons, the auction house, raiding, pvp, navigating the cities, and some environmental and mob quests with the activation icon (the pointer/ gear thing). Though some of this stuff is a no duh for gamers, causals have trouble with these areas. Also, before the expansion, WOW did not transition level 60 players into end game very well. They still have some issues there, but there is more for players to do at 70 and so is not as much of a problem.

Anyrate, many hobby games (D&D very much included) suffer from these issues too. It is that learning curve and ease of finding people to play with that get in the way of new players having fun. You want to get those out of the way, both in the rules and setting.

In Forgotten Realms, the problem was 1) no obvious easy starting place for new GMs and players. 2) a overwhelming feeling of being lost in history, npcs and lore of the realms. 3) Not knowning how to use those elements appropiately to invoke the feel of the realms. 4) Tightening up marketing elements (for example, I personally do not like the egyptian and norse gods that are in Forgotten Realms being there. It ruins the feel of the setting as an outsider to me. I know it implies a connection to earth mythology that was partially intentional, but it comes off as uninspired. I would put money on it that those gods are gone now.)

So, by moving the realms forward in time and causing an event that lets the designers fix marketing elements, bam! The realms gets most of these issues solved hopefully. The problem is, it seems like it became an opportunity to change the look and feel of the realms and remove the legacy of well loved characters.

This could be avoided by down playing the devestation and ruin that remains, allow most of the starting zones for characters to be intact, and let the many heroes and villians have moments in history that changed the world during the 100 year gap for the better or worse. Allow those loved heroes to leave a mark on the world, or be betrayed, or do something long term players can enjoy learning about them. Likewise, keep that Ed Greenwood essence in the cultures and traditions passed down from the 3.5 setting into the 4.0 setting. Let the heart of Cormyr, Waterdeep, etc be true to what they were before.

I think doing that would resolve the initial negative backlash we are seeing and still invite new players by the removed barriers and jumping ahead in the time line of the setting.

 

[FourthBear]

It's not just that the FR history is thrown away or rendered irrelevant, it's that all the campaign history of many of those who run long campaigns is rendered irrelevant.

I am not about to dump all my home-made NPCs, areas and politics in exchange for a 100 year jump into a fresh start - on the contrary, I don't want a blank slate, I spent years changing the FRs into a setting I am comfortable with.

Currently it looks like I'll just mine the 4Realms for ideas, and ignore most of it.

I had a similar feeling during the publication of the Time of Troubles. I hated all the changes it made to the realms, I hate Ao, I hated the way they portrayed the gods and I hated the new cosmology. I just ignored the whole thing and in my Realms campaigns, the Time of Troubles never happened. I've since bought a fair number of 2e and 3e Realms supplements and mined them for ideas and used some parts all wholesale in my campaigns. I'll be picking up the 4e FR Campaign Guide and we'll see what I can get from that. I will say that some of the changes that the 4e team implemented mirror what I've done in my Realms (killed off Mystra and the Chosen, trimmed down the number of gods), so perhaps I'll find it more useful than those who have followed canon more closely.