D&D 5E Are You Excited about Tomb of Annihilation?

[CapnZapp]

I'm paraphrasing, but it's an interesting point he makes that leads me to believe that Acererak is not the BBEG as might be expected.

So I suppose it's possible, but I don't think anything is a given.

You are right. I should have qualified my statement by saying

It's all but a given he will be [watered down] if he's meant to face the adventurers and lose to them.

Of course, having the adventure point towards Tomb of Horrors (and his undiluted stats) is entirely possible.

 

[Jester David]

You are right. I should have qualified my statement by saying

It's all but a given he will be [watered down] if he's meant to face the adventurers and lose to them.

Of course, having the adventure point towards Tomb of Horrors (and his undiluted stats) is entirely possible.

A MM lich is a glass cannon. With only 135 hit points, one will be lucky to last a round against a level 10 party. Thye really don't need to water him down. They could double Acererak's hp and he'll still drop quickly.

 

[Luz]

A MM lich is a glass cannon. With only 135 hit points, one will be lucky to last a round against a level 10 party. Thye really don't need to water him down. They could double Acererak's hp and he'll still drop quickly.

Not sure I agree with that, since you're approaching it with merely its hit points against a 10th level party. There's a lot a party will need to contend with before they get to the lich's hit points, if one is played properly. If my players somehow miraculously managed to get the jump on a lich, then they've earned the easier win.

A problem I've noticed on several forums is that a lot of monsters are quickly dismissed as too weak for their CR by players (and DMs) who somehow have intimate knowledge of a monster's stats. Sure, Intelligence checks should net a player some of that intel but far too frequently it seems players have simply read the MM and mentally waged these mock battles based strictly on four or five characters against one. This is typically not the case, especially against a lich or demilich who have had centuries to prepare against such enemies. Personally, if I suspect my players are using player knowledge vs character knowledge then I will alter the monster's stats and abilities. Not necessarily to make it tougher, just enough to throw my players off their expectations.

 

[eayres33]

I plan to buy it as a resource for jungles generally and the Isle of Dread (Savage Tide) specifically for an upcoming campaign. It sounds like the monsters and NPCs will pretty great. What I won't do is run it as-is, since the chances of me running a campaign in the FR approach zero.

With regard to the "no one will buy an 11-20 product" claim, I say that's a load of manure. If an adventure were to release with a chapter on creating level 11 PCs, with a few modest magic items and fairly robust rules for starting at mid-level (and a roster of pre-generated level 11 PCs) then players would be clamoring to get at it, eager to sample epic adventure. I suspect that a high-level season of Adventurer's League stuff would also be popular. If you're going to have a 10 level range, make it the top 10 for once. If, as some have claimed, the 5e game doesn't gracefully support high-level play, then that's something that bloody well needs fixing.

I always find this odd, I assume WOTC does some market research before they produce things, they seem like a company would do that. They then target their product to the results of that research.

Looking at what they have release, I assume that their research has shown that the money is at 1-10 or slightly above adventures. This range also hits most players sweet spot, and happens to be the easiest adventures to write.

Now would I by a 15 to 20 level adventure, sure I would because I have 4 adventures already that bring me to level 5, 10, 13, and 15, but just because I would buy it doesn't mean that it would be WOTC best adventure after a risk, reward analysis.

WOTC is a business and I expect them to make decisions on what's best for them, not on what is best for me.

 

[eayres33]

Nonsense.

It's all but a given he will be.



Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Can you please sight the research, quote, or facts, you base this opinion on. Please include links to all sources as well, since this is all but a given, you should have these sources at hand.

 

[S'mon]

The adventure concept seems good, but I currently have no interest in these giant Realms-set campaign adventures; the format just doesn't appeal to me. So I can't see myself buying it any time soon. I generally want a lot more sandboxy freedom than this format offers, and if I want a campaign-length adventure I have several Paizo APs queued up. They each take about 2 years to run, so far I have completed one (Curse of the Crimson Throne), am running a mash up of two (Rise of the Runelords + Shattered Star) and would like to run Skull & Shackles and Jade Regent. That will likely take me to around 2022...
So I bought Tales From the Yawning Portal, the modular format of the adventures fits my needs well, and might well buy similar short adventure compilations. But probably no campaign adventures.

 

[Jester David]

Not sure I agree with that, since you're approaching it with merely its hit points against a 10th level party. There's a lot a party will need to contend with before they get to the lich's hit points, if one is played properly. If my players somehow miraculously managed to get the jump on a lich, then they've earned the easier win.

A problem I've noticed on several forums is that a lot of monsters are quickly dismissed as too weak for their CR by players (and DMs) who somehow have intimate knowledge of a monster's stats. Sure, Intelligence checks should net a player some of that intel but far too frequently it seems players have simply read the MM and mentally waged these mock battles based strictly on four or five characters against one. This is typically not the case, especially against a lich or demilich who have had centuries to prepare against such enemies. Personally, if I suspect my players are using player knowledge vs character knowledge then I will alter the monster's stats and abilities. Not necessarily to make it tougher, just enough to throw my players off their expectations.

Except that the lich has hit points equivalent to a CR 8 monster according to the DMG guidelines. To be a real threat, it needs 350+ hit points.

Centuries of preparation mean squat when you're unlikely to make it a single full round. My level 7 party can do more than 100 points of damage. They survived a fight with a CR 12 yuan-to anathema (even then I had to boost the hp from 189 to close to 250 so it'd survive the first round nova).

 

[hawkeyefan]

Except that the lich has hit points equivalent to a CR 8 monster according to the DMG guidelines. To be a real threat, it needs 350+ hit points.

Centuries of preparation mean squat when you're unlikely to make it a single full round. My level 7 party can do more than 100 points of damage. They survived a fight with a CR 12 yuan-to anathema (even then I had to boost the hp from 189 to close to 250 so it'd survive the first round nova).

I think the point is that the lich isn't going to just sit there and let the PCs attack it, even for one round. The idea is that it would be prepared for them....so when they charge it, they actually run facefirst into a wall of force, and then several specters float up through the floor to attack the PCs and the lich teleports away.

That kind if thing. If a lich is simply standing in a room waiting for the PCs to arrive so they can all take turns attacking each other, then just use a skeletal champion or whatever because you are not doing the lich justice.

 

[epithet]

I always find this odd, I assume WOTC does some market research before they produce things, they seem like a company would do that. They then target their product to the results of that research.

Looking at what they have release, I assume that their research has shown that the money is at 1-10 or slightly above adventures. This range also hits most players sweet spot, and happens to be the easiest adventures to write.

Now would I by a 15 to 20 level adventure, sure I would because I have 4 adventures already that bring me to level 5, 10, 13, and 15, but just because I would buy it doesn't mean that it would be WOTC best adventure after a risk, reward analysis.

WOTC is a business and I expect them to make decisions on what's best for them, not on what is best for me.

Judging by their Unearthed Arcana surveys, the market research WotC conducts is no doubt useful but probably limited in scope. For example, research participants might have indicated they would rather have a 1 - 10 campaign, at least in part, because they want a campaign for newly generated characters. If they had been given the option to generate, with robust rule support, level 11 characters and to then play those characters through level 20, they might have responded differently.

I agree that a product aimed at existing level 10 characters will have a much more limited appeal, but look at the almost universal trend in MMOs now: when higher level or "endgame" content is released, they promote the hell out of the "level boost" option that will take a new character to a point where it can engage in the newly released content.

Now that I think about it, I'm remembering that the new XGE is supposed to have some new character background stuff. I wonder if that might include some guidelines for generating a character career spanning 5 - 10 levels, perhaps in anticipation of a higher level adventure to be published afterwards. People have been musing about an adventure that incorporated elements of Planescape, and that seems like content that would be a lot better suited to higher levels of play.

 

[Jester David]

I think the point is that the lich isn't going to just sit there and let the PCs attack it, even for one round. The idea is that it would be prepared for them....so when they charge it, they actually run facefirst into a wall of force, and then several specters float up through the floor to attack the PCs and the lich teleports away.

That kind if thing. If a lich is simply standing in a room waiting for the PCs to arrive so they can all take turns attacking each other, then just use a skeletal champion or whatever because you are not doing the lich justice.

First, none of that affects the lich's CR. A CR 1 guy (albeit with with the right magic item to cast wall of force) can do that. That doesn't mean the surprising intelligent and rich commoner is an appropriate challenge for the party or mean its effective challenge is twice as high as it should be.
And it doesn't mean that when the party does finally get to him, he's going down in one or two turns.

Second, going through your situation, the lich casts the wall of force then the next round teleports away.
This assumes that the lich beats the party with initiative and can block all of them with the wall. And it presumes the party can't teleport, dimension door, Shadow Step, misty step or otherwise get passed the wall of force in the intervening round. Those are both pretty big "ifs".

Third, really, if played smart he shouldn't even be in the tomb. Unless the party makes it through undetected, he should just bail, activate the self-destruct, and set-up shop elsewhere. Or treat it like a pest control problem: seal the tomb and bug bomb the entire dungeon: a party that can't breathe isn't a problem, and as an undead he's unaffected,
But, like dragons dropping boulders on the party from 650 feet in the sky, that is no fun for the players. There's a balance that has to be struck between smart villains and fun villains.
And, since it's a published adventure, you have to reply on the presentation in the book, which is generic and not custom built for your party. What Chris Perkins decides might work, might be easily bypassed by your party. You can customise for sure, but that still relies on you (one person) being smarter and more cunning than 3-5 other players working together.