D&D 5E Are You Excited about Tomb of Annihilation?

[Luz]

First, none of that affects the lich's CR. A CR 1 guy (albeit with with the right magic item to cast wall of force) can do that. That doesn't mean the surprising intelligent and rich commoner is an appropriate challenge for the party or mean its effective challenge is twice as high as it should be.
And it doesn't mean that when the party does finally get to him, he's going down in one or two turns.

I think there are generally two schools of thought when it comes to BBEGs: those who view them as a solo boss and those who don't. I fall into the latter category, as exemplified in hawkeyefan's post. I wouldn't argue that a 10th level party cannot chew through 135 hp with ease, because they can. A lich has access up to 9th level spells that the DM is free to switch to suit his own strategies and needs; that leaves room for a ton of different tactics for the lich to use on the party to ensure they are kept pretty busy (and spending precious resources) before they even reach it - that's just how I'd run one. I'd never have it sitting there waiting to go toe-to-toe with the party, there are other brutes that serve that purpose for a lich (golems, summoned demons, etc.)

Second, going through your situation, the lich casts the wall of force then the next round teleports away.
This assumes that the lich beats the party with initiative and can block all of them with the wall. And it presumes the party can't teleport, dimension door, Shadow Step, misty step or otherwise get passed the wall of force in the intervening round. Those are both pretty big "ifs".

There are a few assumptions being made here. I realize the wall of force is but one defensive tactic in a lich's repertoire, but it is a good tactic to divide and conquer. If we're still using a 10th level party as the example, they won't have teleport, but they will have dimension door, misty step, etc. So first they need to discover the wall of force is even there, then bypass it with the various methods mentioned. Misty step allows only the caster to travel, and dimension door allows the caster plus one if the caster's carry capacity is sufficient to bring another. So again, the lich has succeeded in dividing the party and had them use actions to discover the wall of force. To take this a step further, going with a prepared lich with a game plan, the lich has already cast mislead on itself so those who bypass the wall are faced with an illusory lich. Not to mention other safeguards like glyph of warding, programmed illusions, guards and wards, etc. And I haven't even used any 7th, 8th, or 9th level spells yet, not to mention other summoned minions (all within the lich's means straight out of the MM).

At any rate, this is just a simple example that I might use. I'm not saying a 10th level party would lose to a lich, just that I doubt they would wipe one out in a single round or two. Nor am I trying to change your mind about it, this is all just spitballing.

Third, really, if played smart he shouldn't even be in the tomb. Unless the party makes it through undetected, he should just bail, activate the self-destruct, and set-up shop elsewhere. Or treat it like a pest control problem: seal the tomb and bug bomb the entire dungeon: a party that can't breathe isn't a problem, and as an undead he's unaffected,
But, like dragons dropping boulders on the party from 650 feet in the sky, that is no fun for the players. There's a balance that has to be struck between smart villains and fun villains.

I agree, there does need to be a balance between smart and fun villains - and this falls squarely on the DM's shoulders to make that happen, not some pseudo-mathematical CR guideline. There's something to be said for recurring villains, and smart villains should have escape plans. Not all BBEGs need to be a fight to the finish, at least not in the first encounter or two. YMMV.

 

[Luz]

*double post

 

[hawkeyefan]

First, none of that affects the lich's CR. A CR 1 guy (albeit with with the right magic item to cast wall of force) can do that. That doesn't mean the surprising intelligent and rich commoner is an appropriate challenge for the party or mean its effective challenge is twice as high as it should be.
And it doesn't mean that when the party does finally get to him, he's going down in one or two turns.

Second, going through your situation, the lich casts the wall of force then the next round teleports away.
This assumes that the lich beats the party with initiative and can block all of them with the wall. And it presumes the party can't teleport, dimension door, Shadow Step, misty step or otherwise get passed the wall of force in the intervening round. Those are both pretty big "ifs".

Third, really, if played smart he shouldn't even be in the tomb. Unless the party makes it through undetected, he should just bail, activate the self-destruct, and set-up shop elsewhere. Or treat it like a pest control problem: seal the tomb and bug bomb the entire dungeon: a party that can't breathe isn't a problem, and as an undead he's unaffected,
But, like dragons dropping boulders on the party from 650 feet in the sky, that is no fun for the players. There's a balance that has to be struck between smart villains and fun villains.
And, since it's a published adventure, you have to reply on the presentation in the book, which is generic and not custom built for your party. What Chris Perkins decides might work, might be easily bypassed by your party. You can customise for sure, but that still relies on you (one person) being smarter and more cunning than 3-5 other players working together.

My example was general....depending on what the PCs do or have done, I would expect a lich type character to prepare accordingly. Which may mean leaving, yes. Or casting wall of force before the PCs arrive so that initiative is not a factor.

But as long as the phylactery is secured, there may not be a need to flee. Just prep for the oncoming heroes and then battle to the death. Let them think they've won, return in a new body to devastate them a couple days later. Whatever. There are many oltions open to such a character.

My point is that if a lich dies in one round against the PCs, then I would say the DM has erred.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Are You Excited about Tomb of Annihilation?

Yes.

Don't know if I'll run it in the FR or even in Chult, but my current campaign (Shackled City) is already situated in a jungle area with dinosaurs... So, if the tomb somehow magically showed up in the area, that might be cool.

 

[Jester David]

My example was general....depending on what the PCs do or have done, I would expect a lich type character to prepare accordingly. Which may mean leaving, yes. Or casting wall of force before the PCs arrive so that initiative is not a factor.

But as long as the phylactery is secured, there may not be a need to flee. Just prep for the oncoming heroes and then battle to the death. Let them think they've won, return in a new body to devastate them a couple days later. Whatever. There are many oltions open to such a character.

My point is that if a lich dies in one round against the PCs, then I would say the DM has erred.

Well, clearly the best thing for a lich to do if being stymied by a level 10 party is attack them when they're resting for the night at the inn, killing the fighter with power word: kill. Moving to the next few rooms to kill the wizard and cleric with finger of death and then finishing off the rogue without a flank buddy. If interrupted, sending all its minions at once instead of convenient level appropriate waves. Then leave. If anyone survives, come back after 8 hours and finish the rest.

Really, the lich should just cast divination every seven days and ask "where are the groups of adventurers who might interfere with my plans staying?" And then just kill them.

But I'm not sure my players will keep playing with me after I murderer their characters like that.

 

[Prism]

Well, clearly the best thing for a lich to do if being stymied by a level 10 party is attack them when they're resting for the night at the inn, killing the fighter with power word: kill. Moving to the next few rooms to kill the wizard and cleric with finger of death and then finishing off the rogue without a flank buddy. If interrupted, sending all its minions at once instead of convenient level appropriate waves. Then leave. If anyone survives, come back after 8 hours and finish the rest.

Not that I think there will be an encounter with either a lich or a demi lich in the adventure, but the power of the lich boils down to if you stick with the book spells or not. As written I imagine that a 10th level party has a pretty decent chance of beating the lich since all it has prepared as high level slots are single target damage spells. With a better selection like forcecage, meteor swarm, wall of force and hold person then the lich is going to easily match the same party.

 

[Jester David]

Not that I think there will be an encounter with either a lich or a demi lich in the adventure, but the power of the lich boils down to if you stick with the book spells or not. As written I imagine that a 10th level party has a pretty decent chance of beating the lich since all it has prepared as high level slots are single target damage spells. With a better selection like forcecage, meteor swarm, wall of force and hold person then the lich is going to easily match the same party.

IIRC was a lich in Curse of Strahd.
And there's going to be both a plastic and resin mini of Acererak. And he's on the cover. I doubt they're going to just exclude him...

 

[Prism]

IIRC was a lich in Curse of Strahd.
And there's going to be both a plastic and resin mini of Acererak. And he's on the cover. I doubt they're going to just exclude him...

Chris Perkins uses the words 'he might show up but he is not really the protagonist'. That suggests to me that they aren't going to scale him down specifically for a beatable encounter. Sounds like there is a good chance you can complete the adventure without actually meeting him, and if you do meet him it might not be a combat situation.

 

[Motorskills]

Chris Perkins uses the words 'he might show up but he is not really the protagonist'. That suggests to me that they aren't going to scale him down specifically for a beatable encounter. Sounds like there is a good chance you can complete the adventure without actually meeting him, and if you do meet him it might not be a combat situation.

It would make sense that ToA could be used as a prequel to ToH perhaps.

 

[Croesus]

Really, the lich should just cast divination every seven days and ask "where are the groups of adventurers who might interfere with my plans staying?" And then just kill them.

This sounds so much like many of the Greek myths, where attempting to avoid one's fate becomes the cause of one's fate.

Imagine the lich casts divination as you say and the spell points to a particular party. The party has no idea the lich even exists, much less is going to interfere with its plans. The lich doesn't know this, so it attempts - but fails - to take out the party. The party decides that having a lich hunting them is not a good thing, and offense being the best defense, execute a plan that takes down the lich. If only the lich had not cast that divination spell, the lich would still be around. Oops.

Now if I can just figure out a way to do something like this in a campaign...

edit: The lich's divination points to a newly-formed group of low-level adventurers. As the lich is busy with more important matters, it assigns their destruction to a minion. The minion attempts but fails to destroy the adventurers, creating a mystery for the PCs. The lich periodically assigns the task to new minions. Assuming the party survives, they have more and more reason to figure out what's going on, and as they gain levels, they become more capable of doing so. Eventually their efforts lead to the lich. This could be an interesting meta-plot to a campaign, perhaps even using some form of divination for the PCs to give the party some reason to stick together. ("You may succeed together, but separately you will certainly fall.")