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PF2 Are you moving from 5E to PF2?

Kaodi

Adventurer
Ah, that's right. Slipped my mind. I suppose maybe they could just be mini-archetypes, and maybe the feats could be rejigged to do more than just give access to spells (or give access to more spells).

Though... Half-Elf does have that Elf-Atavist feat going on. So maybe they could still be taken with racial feats, and maybe there is some way the general idea could work.
 

Rhianni32

Explorer
I will be switching from 5ed over to PF2.

5ed is pretty rules light and for me has too much "let the DM figure out the mechanics its their game".

I want to spend my time and energy on figuring out the setting and story as its unfolding. I'm actually burnt out on 5ed's we are rules light so as not to offend potential customers giving freedom to the GM. I'm looking forward to some clear cut rules.
 

GrahamWills

Explorer
Yes, pretty much. Of course, 13th Age is my preferred game, and I'm just about to start a campaign there, and I have a D&D 4E game that I play online. They're my current favorites.

But for con play I've been playing a mix of PF1 and 5E. PF1 has the "we're going to try and simulate things, but it's going to only sort of work and add crunchy rules that will annoy you in the attempt" feel that 3.0 and 3.5 had, whereas 5E felt like the world's least interesting design -- taking the middle approach to everything and ending up with an inoffensive system that few people can hate. PF2 has much more of a personality, so it should draw a reaction -- I like it, so I'll play it, replacing 5E. But if you prefer an inoffensive system that is simpler and does less, I can easily see sticking with 5E.
 

dave2008

Adventurer
I will be switching from 5ed over to PF2.

5ed is pretty rules light and for me has too much "let the DM figure out the mechanics its their game".

I want to spend my time and energy on figuring out the setting and story as its unfolding. I'm actually burnt out on 5ed's we are rules light so as not to offend potential customers giving freedom to the GM. I'm looking forward to some clear cut rules.
I used to be like you. But I no longer spend much time on world building because, although I like it, it rarely adds anything for my players. I have come to enjoy the less codified 5e as it has less bits that get in the way of how we play. It is easy for me to add depth and detail to 5e. However, PF2e has lots of bits and pieces that, to me, just get in the way of the fun and are more difficult for me to cut out. If anything, I am trending to an even more rules light system like @Morrus 's recently release d6 based system.
 

ajevans

Explorer
I will also be switching from 5e to PF2.

Two reasons:
1. Combat in 5e tends to be a bit dull. PF2 rules and options seem to lend themselves to a far more fun and dynamic experience.The more dramatic increase in ability by level is not to everyone's tastes but helps keep the game fresh for me and my players.
2. Official PDFs exist for PF2 products - this makes it far easier to run for me.
 

Markh3rd

Explorer
If combat in PF2 is more involved with choices, how long can you expect high level battles to take? We had a level 17 5e battle take over an hour to run. I remember PF1 level 12 battles taking that long. Will PF2 be even longer?
 

ajevans

Explorer
If combat in PF2 is more involved with choices, how long can you expect high level battles to take? We had a level 17 5e battle take over an hour to run. I remember PF1 level 12 battles taking that long. Will PF2 be even longer?

Don't know but don't really care. We tend to rotate games fairly regularly so high-level games rarely happen and if the combats interesting and dynamic it's not a problem.
 

BlackSeed_Vash

Explorer
Between reading the playtest and glancing through the finished product, it gives me a strong 4E vibe, which wasn't my cup of tea. However, if a friend wants to run a game, I'll be happy to give it a try
 

FrogReaver

Adventurer
I will also be switching from 5e to PF2.

Two reasons:
1. Combat in 5e tends to be a bit dull. PF2 rules and options seem to lend themselves to a far more fun and dynamic experience.The more dramatic increase in ability by level is not to everyone's tastes but helps keep the game fresh for me and my players.
2. Official PDFs exist for PF2 products - this makes it far easier to run for me.
Interestingly. The increase by level would be the easiest thing to port over to 5e. You would lose bounded accuracy against extremely low or high levels enemies. But it would overall work pretty well
 

dave2008

Adventurer
Don't know but don't really care. We tend to rotate games fairly regularly so high-level games rarely happen and if the combats interesting and dynamic it's not a problem.
Ya, we had an epic 5-6 hour battle in 4e (30th level players vs my heavily revised Tiamat) and no one complained. It was one of the best battles I have ever experienced.
 
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Lucas Yew

Explorer
Interestingly. The increase by level would be the easiest thing to port over to 5e. You would lose bounded accuracy against extremely low or high levels enemies. But it would overall work pretty well
If so, which value of the two, HD or CR, will work as the metric for non-playable creatures' Proficiency bonus? In PF2, it's HD=Level for everyone. In 5E, it's HD for players and CR for non-players.

This disparity is probably the biggest reason why I decided I prefer PF2 despite its flaws; if both of the newest D&D derivatives decided that NPC rules are (or can be) separate from PCs (which on its own is a big shame, in my opinion), at least aim for the more "simulationist (or closer to running on same physics engine)" game. Well, that's my personal principle, so...
 

Haffrung

Explorer
This disparity is probably the biggest reason why I decided I prefer PF2 despite its flaws; if both of the newest D&D derivatives decided that NPC rules are (or can be) separate from PCs (which on its own is a big shame, in my opinion), at least aim for the more "simulationist (or closer to running on same physics engine)" game. Well, that's my personal principle, so...
Honest question: Do you like making up NPCs? Is spending significant periods of time between sessions crafting NPCs with all the care you take in creating a PC part of the fun of being a GM for you? To the extent that you enjoy it for its own sake, rather than the effect it will have on the game at the table?

Because in my experience as a GM, the effect of an NPC on the game is two things: dialogue (which doesn't require mechanics); and combat, where an NPC typically lives for 3-4 rounds. That being the case, I find the great majority of the 'full PC' stats and mechanics generated for an NPC to have no use.

So I'm curious why some people (and you're not the only one) seem to be disappointed in the idea that NPCs have truncated stats in 5E and PF2. How does that impact the game at the table for you?
 

Markh3rd

Explorer
Ya, we had an epic 5-6 hour battle in 4e (30th level players vs my heavily revised Tiamat) and no one complained. It was on of the best battles I have ever experienced.
Our epic level 13 adventure in PFS at a convention went from 10AM to 3AM the next morning. I learned what slow high level play and analysis paralysis truly meant that day. I'm hoping not to repeat that experience anytime soon. And though any system can slow down at high levels of play, our 5E adventures at 17th level haven't come close to that previous experience.
 

CapnZapp

Adventurer
Honest question: Do you like making up NPCs? Is spending significant periods of time between sessions crafting NPCs with all the care you take in creating a PC part of the fun of being a GM for you? To the extent that you enjoy it for its own sake, rather than the effect it will have on the game at the table?

Because in my experience as a GM, the effect of an NPC on the game is two things: dialogue (which doesn't require mechanics); and combat, where an NPC typically lives for 3-4 rounds. That being the case, I find the great majority of the 'full PC' stats and mechanics generated for an NPC to have no use.

So I'm curious why some people (and you're not the only one) seem to be disappointed in the idea that NPCs have truncated stats in 5E and PF2. How does that impact the game at the table for you?
This.

The idea that DMs are required to use the full player character generation rules for their NPCs is dead.

Thankfully!
 

Lucas Yew

Explorer
Honest question(s)
For the first three questions: Yes, to all three, with passion.

Now, the answer to the fourth and final one is quite longer. Why I feel disappointed in the "truncation" of NPC stats is, because it wrecks my feeling of verisimilitude in-universe severely; no wonder if I add that my personal favorite (hypothetical) RPG rule is GURPS (with equally divided DX and IQ, plus legally free as with OGL or CC, but that's another story).
The personal preferrence of every in-game entity running on the same principles (especially with no Heal-Damage Asymmetry, like Pokèmon, for a JRPG reference, in contrast to Final Fantasy and many others) violated.
Every time I see a fantasy heartbreaker rule showcase such an incident, something inside me I can feel dying rapidly and viciously.
It is deeply unsatisfying, really; maybe some kind of depression, but hopefully not (my Will save is surprisingly high for someone with such a personal history).

However, I do understand well that for Gamemasters, simplified statistics (and H-DA by extension) are a million times easier to actually run, particularly if their screentime is destined to be short.
So it's my compromise that while I may complain about its existence now and then, I won't try to police against such style of prep and play as hard as I can.
Well, if I ever get to GM someday (I only have player experience, since I'm not sure if I have the responsibility or social skills to manage the job seriously, plus without RL spare time), I will revel in preparing elaborately statted up sandboxy worlds, even whilst knowing that it may drain my energy mercilessly, because that is the primary reason why I decided to invest time and love for this hobby.
 

dave2008

Adventurer
If so, which value of the two, HD or CR, will work as the metric for non-playable creatures' Proficiency bonus? In PF2, it's HD=Level for everyone. In 5E, it's HD for players and CR for non-players.
FYI, that is not entirely true. In 5e prof bonus doesn't have to be tied to CR. That table in the DMG is just a short cut to help make monsters & NPCs quicky and determine (roughly) their CR. It is allowed to make them just like PCs (I assume this is true in PF2e, but I could be wrong). In fact, I've switched to using HD for prof. bonus for my home game. It is also handy that it can be used to throw off PCs you like to rummage through the MM when they shouldn't;) That being said, it changes very few of the monsters. They are pretty much already figured with HD for prof. bonus.
 

dave2008

Adventurer
Well, if I ever get to GM someday (I only have player experience, since I'm not sure if I have the responsibility or social skills to manage the job seriously, plus without RL spare time), I will revel in preparing elaborately statted up sandboxy worlds, even whilst knowing that it may drain my energy mercilessly, because that is the primary reason why I decided to invest time and love for this hobby.
Wait, you don't DM and it bothers you?! You do realize the monsters are played with the same rules, even if a shorthand is used to make them?
 

Lucas Yew

Explorer
(...) In fact, I've switched to using HD for prof. bonus for my home game. (...)
That's good, I actually once planned to do the exact same thing.
...With the caveat that while the number of SRD-compatible monsters with "wrong" Proficiency are staggering alone, there is also Spells and Class Features that deal with that detestable floating value known as CR (such as the summoning spells and Turn Undead); why, WotC, why not HD...?
And that one major issue made me decide to give up on staying with 5E despite its immense ease with playing (plus my totally satisfying/memorable first long-term campaign experience, to boot) and bide my time for now, if I'm remembering correctly...

Wait, you don't DM and it bothers you?! You do realize the monsters are played with the same rules, even if a shorthand is used to make them?
I do want to GM someday, so my opinion counts, no?
And yeah, I know non-playables do play generally by the same rules, unlike 4E (whence all monsters since MM3 always struck AC with a Level+5 bonus, struck the "save" defenses with a Level+3 bonus, regardless of their Ability bonuses... Ugh... And don't even mention their skills or "exchanging stat blocks").
At least now there are official Rarity rules for legally justifying NPC exclusive flashy action choices / spells, and now that's quite acceptable.
And NO Health-Damage Asymmetry (casually observed in Starfinder and 4E) is always rated from good to perfect in my book.
 

dave2008

Adventurer
That's good, I actually once planned to do the exact same thing.
...With the caveat that while the number of SRD-compatible monsters with "wrong" Proficiency are staggering alone, there is also Spells and Class Features that deal with that detestable floating value known as CR (such as the summoning spells and Turn Undead); why, WotC, why not HD...?
I agree, they should have just stuck the prof. bonus to HD. That would also prevent the DMG monster buiding guidelines form being circular which can be confusing. However,...

Prof. / HD / CR are different things. If you use HD for the prof. bonus you will notice that it doesn't change the CR of 90% - 95% of the monsters. So they are good to go (that is what I meant in the previous email - sorry I didn't explain that). You do need to adjust the attack numbers, but IMO that is easy. So my point is, the spells can use CR and it still works. It actually makes sense as CR is supposed to measure combat effectiveness but prof. just measures accuracy (generally). I wish it was executed better, but, IMO, it is actually better than basing it off HD / level has combat effectiveness can vary across various creatures HD/ level. Indeed, once you factor in different HD die for monster size it really begins to makes sense (I actually wish all PCs got d8 for HD and then class gave a flat bonus to HP) forma simulation standpoint.

I do want to GM someday, so my opinion counts, no?
No it matters, I've just never seen a player complain about this before. There are definitely things, as a DM, that bother more from a simulation perspective in any version of D&D/PF than HD/CR/Prof. bonus, but everyone is different.
 

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