Are you playing D&D if there are no dice?

[The Levitator]

That we are discussing it at all shows we are taking all of this too seriously.

Yeah, you are probably right. But it's how I'm wired. I don't like spending my time doing something half-donkeyed. If I'm going to spend time doing something in my life, I want it to be as good as it can be. It drives my wife nuts sometimes, but the few things I do in my life, I'm pretty darn good at.

 

[RFisher]

What I don't get is the illusion that some people experience in that throwing a piece of plastic is giving anyone any more say in the outcome than clicking a button on a random number generator.

I think it's similar to why I find guitar more satisfying than piano.

When someone says something like that, I think it's likely just that the whole dice experience makes them feel more connected. They're just doing their best to try to express a feeling. It may be illusion, but in the human mind, illusion can be very...I don't know...real.

Ironically, a computer generated list of rolls is probably the only true way to get an accurate probability roll as most dice usually have some form of a roughness to them after a few rolls.

The bias of most of the dice we are using just isn't great enough to make a practical difference. It's not like we're generating encryption keys.

On the other hand, most random number generators on computers are really pseudo-random. They are a regular pattern that seems random. If fact, dice rolling programs often use some of the worst algorithms we have. But, like the bias in our dice, they're good enough for what we're doing with them.

 

[DonTadow]

I think it's similar to why I find guitar more satisfying than piano.

When someone says something like that, I think it's likely just that the whole dice experience makes them feel more connected. They're just doing their best to try to express a feeling. It may be illusion, but in the human mind, illusion can be very...I don't know...real.



The bias of most of the dice we are using just isn't great enough to make a practical difference. It's not like we're generating encryption keys.

On the other hand, most random number generators on computers are really pseudo-random. They are a regular pattern that seems random. If fact, dice rolling programs often use some of the worst algorithms we have. But, like the bias in our dice, they're good enough for what we're doing with them.

But if we're talking true probability generation then you have to pick a computer of a dice. Any flaw within a solution is a problem. Then we're just talking about physical aspects of the dice. The tables material and distance from the table also play a part in the dice. I"m not saying that dice aren't random, or that any one other than a mathematician would even realize dice probability but those flaws are still there. Most programs will generate true probability. Most dice rolling will not. Else games like craps would not exist.

Dice make us feel like we are playing a game. It gives meaning to our turns because it allows us to physically interact with the game. Which is all its about.
On the other side it still limits RPGs to game mechanics, and american game mechanics at that.

If computers had been around in the 70s and the rolls were prerolled but after we declard an action we had to throw a blue cube on the table and say bachi, we'd all now think anyone whom played without the bachi wasn't playing d and d. Despite the fact that the bachi's presence does not take away from the randomness.

Dice rolling feels like apart of the game but i nreality i think all that the game needs is a way to determine randomness. We as people though need the dice to be apart of the game so that we can physically interact with something.

 

[RFisher]

Most programs will generate true probability. Most dice rolling will not. Else games like craps would not exist.

Either I'm somehow misunderstanding you, or you've got it completely backwards. When I write encryption software, I look for sources of randomness that come from outside the computer because the computer is inherently deterministic. It's entire design is about correcting errors in the messy analog world it is part of in order to provide a tidy digital space. Craps uses carefully engineered dice & makes you bounce them off a wall in order to get as close to true probability as possible.

(It's the interaction among a increasingly complex set of different instruction written by different people--including inadvertant mistakes by those people & miscommunication (if any communication) among them--that make personal computers seem so chaotically. It's still only psuedo-random though. Unless you have improper shielding for the electro-magnetic activity in your environment or something. (^_^))

 

[shilsen]

Dice rolling feels like apart of the game but i nreality i think all that the game needs is a way to determine randomness. We as people though need the dice to be apart of the game so that we can physically interact with something.

True, but I don't think that "We as people" applies universally. It doesn't apply to me, for example, and I'm sure there are a lot of others to whom it doesn't.

 

[The Levitator]

See, that's the thing. I totally understand that there are people who must play D&D with dice because it helps them feel more connected to the game aspect of it. I've never questioned that. The issue for me isn't whether playing with dice is valid or not, it's that I don't understand the attitude that playing without dice is somehow less of a game and less vaild in some people's view. If we were free-roleplaying, using no method to determine success or failure other than imagination, I could understand the distinction.

I recently sat in as a player in a Rolemaster session. The first 30 minutes was really fun for me because they use dice and minis, and it really felt nostalgic for me. It brought back some memories of playing as a kid. But that wore off quick when combats were taking 30 minutes/round with 6 people. Not only was it much slower, but the entire game was centered around numbers. It just felt very unemotional to me. Rattling off numbers and consulting charts just takes away from the experience for me. It never once felt cinematic or immersive for me. And that's what makes it feel like a game for me. I don't need dice to remind me I'm playing a game. I don't need dice to feel connected to the experience of roleplaying. I don't need to have the mechanics in my face constantly for roleplaying to feel like a game to me. What I need from my roleplaying experience is that it flow smoothly and feel cinematic and immersive. The "game" part of roleplaying for me are the tactics, problem solving and decision making involved. Chess doesn't have dice, but it's a game. Many "games" don't use dice. That's what I guess bothers me about this thread. The overimportance placed on the dice in a roleplaying game seems a bit counterintuitive to me. I do believe that roleplaying games need some kind of randomization mechanic and mathematical structure to give the game a sense of tangibility and fairness. I don't believe that using a random number is any less a game than using dice to determine the outcome. I've always believed that flexibility is a key draw to roleplaying. There are many different gaming styles out there, probably almost as many styles as there are gaming groups. Roleplaying is one of the only games I've ever played with the amount of freedom a player has within the game and nearly unlimited options available. For me, the only wrong way to play D&D is in a way where people aren't having a good time.

 

[RFisher]

See, that's the thing. I totally understand that there are people who must play D&D with dice because it helps them feel more connected to the game aspect of it. I've never questioned that. The issue for me isn't whether playing with dice is valid or not, it's that I don't understand the attitude that playing without dice is somehow less of a game and less vaild in some people's view.

I still think it is because--for some people--they don't necessarily understand why the dice are such an important part of the game for them. It doesn't feel the same when I don't use dice. → Not using dice isn't a valid way of playing the game. We're human. We can be very rational, but we sometimes have a tendency to rationalize what we intuit. At least that's often the case for myself.