Are your players usually ok with restrictions?

[Mallus]

As a player, I just don't see why I need to grill the DM and demand an explanation.

As a player, I agree completely. And grilling the DM is rude.

But ironically enough, as a DM, I find I do need an explanation... from myself (hello therapy bills!). I find myself asking, "Well, why can't Bill play a half-orc? (or whatever)". I find it hard to justify enforcing my particular aesthetic judgments on the PCs my players want to run, given that the whole rest of the campaign world is constructed from my aesthetic judgments.

So I'd look for a compromise. "If you want to go gnome, you're going it alone" ie, your PC fell through a portal, as a race gnomes don't exist in the setting.

PS What's laserbeak?

A Transformer.

 

[gamerprinter]

Let's say you're at a diner, looking over the menu. You don't see an item that you'd expect from a diner menu; a BLT, say. But you've had a hankering for a BLT all day, so you ask the waitress why it's not on the menu. Her response is "the cook just doesn't like BLTs."

What if you are having this issue in a vegan restaurant, or a Chinese restaurant? Just because you're hankering for a BLT, doesn't mean every restaurant should serve it.

If you're playing in Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting, for example, while an outsider of any given race could visit and campaign there. If you're a local, you're only possibly a human, henge, kappa or tengu. There are no indigenous elves, half-elves, gnomes, halflings, dwarves nor half orcs. It's fantasy feudal Japan, there aren't any half-orcs even if you want to play one. As long as know ahead time that this is what the setting is, I don't see why you'd have a problem.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

You know, I think Oryan's vocabulary is skewing the issue somewhat. I've never had or seen a player "grill" a DM about his restrictions, but I get the sense that some people in this thread are imagining just that. So for the record, what I'm attempting to explain is mere curiosity.

Yep. I don't think a diner is well-served for offering everything from won tons through goulash. What's available is what's available.

Good for you. I assure you though, that polite curiosity is also a common and acceptable response to the omission of an option that one would otherwise expect.

What if you are having this issue in a vegan restaurant, or a Chinese restaurant? Just because you're hankering for a BLT, doesn't mean every restaurant should serve it.

If you're hankering for a BLT, you wouldn't go to a vegan or a chinese place. Because you wouldn't expect to get a BLT from those places; and that's the point.

In non-metaphorism: If you're hankering for a half-orc, you wouldn't go looking for a Kaiden campaign or whatever. You'd look for a typical D&D game, because you'd expect* half-orcs to be an option. If the only DM in town is running Kaiden, well tough luck, but that's not an arbitrary restriction. It's thematic.

*And by "expect," I don't mean "It's in the rulebooks, so you must allow it or I'll whine and tantrum!!!" I mean "It's in the rulebook, and it's a part of the typical D&D milieu, so I can reasonably assume it will be an option in a typical D&D campaign."

 

[JamesonCourage]

Let's say you're at a diner, looking over the menu. You don't see an item that you'd expect from a diner menu; a BLT, say. But you've had a hankering for a BLT all day, so you ask the waitress why it's not on the menu. Her response is "the cook just doesn't like BLTs."

You know, I'd probably allow people more of what they wanted if they paid me each time we played.

Until then, it's like going to my home, not a diner. Sure, you can have my food (campaign). I only buy what I like, though (restrictions). It's free, and it's good (to me), and I'll even make it for you myself, because I like cooking (GMing). So, yes, you can have some food. But, it's only going to be stuff I like, unless I have a reason to buy something I don't like.

Since I play with (mostly) longtime friends, I'll often "buy" something I don't like too much just to keep around for them to play. That is, I'll sprinkle my campaign with stuff they like that I may not. Maybe they're only close to one party member and just "meh" with the rest; I don't like it, but they like the dynamic it adds. Maybe they want to be a monster race in a setting where they're usually not accepted; again, not my taste, but as long as it's not party-wide, I can try to work it in.

In the meantime, the vast majority of stuff is going to be based on stuff I like. When I like running the game, it's (usually) more enjoyable for everyone. It's definitely more enjoyable for them than if I don't like running it.

So, yeah, in my home, I'll serve you, for free, but it's almost exclusively the food I like. I'd happily and graciously accept the same were we in your home. I'm not going to demand you make me a BLT at your place, and I won't demand that someone lets me play a half-orc in their campaign.

Then again, social contracts differ from group to group, so use what works for your group. I don't think there's a blanket objectively right or wrong view here. As always, play what you like

 

[Oryan77]

If I find something else I want and it is served well, then yes I'll recommend the diner for what it does well.

That's how I am. I've been to a Chinese restaurant expecting to order a certain dish. They didn't have it on the menu. No big deal. I came to eat Chinese food (play D&D) and there were plenty of other things available that I do like. The reasons for why they didn't serve the dish made no difference to me. The outcome is still the same.

If I liked the service and the rest of the meal, I'm not going to follow it up by speaking negatively about the place to people just cause I didn't get what I wanted. Not getting what I wanted doesn't mean they were a bad restaurant (or DM).

I've never had or seen a player "grill" a DM about his restrictions, but I get the sense that some people in this thread are imagining just that.

I don't have any abnormal character creation restrictions like banning a core race. So I've never had a player demand an explanation from me about that.

But I have had players want to play races that I never even heard of before. I even had a player want me to allow a WoW race in my D&D game. I wanted to stick to using the races I was familiar with and I originally said "no". Then they kept pestering me about it. I do try to let the players play what they want, so I allowed the race (or allowed a similar D&D race that I don't offer as a PC race). But the fact that they "grilled" me about it until I gave them their way was extremely annoying. No matter what explanation I gave, it wasn't good enough.

I don't mind explaining my restrictions. But I don't like to defend my restrictions even if it was as basic as "I just don't like it." We all have things we don't like with no real good reason for not liking it. I don't see why a player can't still have fun playing one of the other many options available. I do!

I can reasonably assume it will be an option in a typical D&D campaign."

But when the DM says it isn't an option, then you know it isn't the typical D&D campaign.

 

[ggroy]

Then again, social contracts differ from group to group, so use what works for your group. I don't think there's a blanket objectively right or wrong view here. As always, play what you like

In practice, I've found that playing rpg games at conventions or gaming stores, the main social contract was that things were largely done "by the book". Significant deviations from the book without consulting the players, frequently led to players abruptly walking away from the game.

For games played in private homes, the social contract varied quite significantly. It ranged anything from a complete democracy to an absolute DM dictatorship.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Then again, social contracts differ from group to group, so use what works for your group. I don't think there's a blanket objectively right or wrong view here. As always, play what you like

Certainly. And again, I'm not saying that restrictions are wrong; I have some of my own. I'm only explaining why some of us will casually ask "Why?" and why too many restrictions might lead to disappointment and possibly discontent -- particularly arbitrary ones. 'Too many' of course varies from player to player.

That's how I am. I've been to a Chinese restaurant expecting to order a certain dish. They didn't have it on the menu. No big deal. I came to eat Chinese food (play D&D) and there were plenty of other things available that I do like. The reasons for why they didn't serve the dish made no difference to me. The outcome is still the same.

True, and you might end up having a great meal anyway. You might find a new favorite dish. But until your second choice arrives in front of you with those chopsticks, there's a certain disappointment involved -- at least for me there is. And if the reason for my disappointment is "the cook just doesn't like my favorite dish," well that just makes the emotion that much harder to swallow. [Pun intended.] But if the waitress gives me some kind of practical reason why I can't have it, I'm more inclined to just shrug and be content with my second choice. I guess it's partly about empathy.

But I have had players want to play races that I never even heard of before. I even had a player want me to allow a WoW race in my D&D game. I wanted to stick to using the races I was familiar with and I originally said "no". Then they kept pestering me about it. I do try to let the players play what they want, so I allowed the race (or allowed a similar D&D race that I don't offer as a PC race). But the fact that they "grilled" me about it until I gave them their way was extremely annoying. No matter what explanation I gave, it wasn't good enough.

That's just...ugh. Let me guess, he rage quit or got booted before the campaign ended. Amiright? Just out of curiosity, which WoW race did he want to play?

But when the DM says it isn't an option, then you know it isn't the typical D&D campaign.

Agreed. Mine certainly ain't.

 

[Water Bob]

Are players in your group ok with the DM putting restrictions on things like races, classes, or source books? Or can it strike a nerve with someone and cause someone to complain about it?

I'd say they're OK with it. For this current campaign, my player had zero choice about character class. I started them all using the same class. I also had pre-determined backstories that the players had little input on. And, I even named the characters (because we don't really choose our names at birth--we're given names).

I heard zero complaints about it. Instead, my players were intrigued. And, to this day, we're still going strong with the original characters.

 

[Oryan77]

That's just...ugh. Let me guess, he rage quit or got booted before the campaign ended. Amiright? Just out of curiosity, which WoW race did he want to play?

One player wasn't a problem, he just wanted to play a Fey'ri and I'm not a big fan of flying PCs at early levels. But I let him play it. He never did anything annoying other than create a new PC just a few sessions later. After all that begging and pleading and then he made a dwarf PC!

The other player wanted to play a Tauren. I'm not a WoW player so he explained to me that they were cow people. What he really wanted was for me to custom create the race. I guess it wasn't enough that I already put together a list of 30 different races I would allow, he wanted me to custom build him a race. The Minotaur was a much higher ECL than our level, but I remembered the Krynn Minotaur from Dragonlance. So I allowed him to use that.

But you are absolutely right. It didn't take long for that player to throw a hissy fit over some other stupid issue and then quit. It was a constant thing with this person. I take it that you've dealt with the same sort of player? Funny how we can make a prediction like that. It makes me wonder how many people that came here to complain about a DM/Player and are still playing together despite the problems. I know I've never seen it last in my groups.

I started them all using the same class. I also had pre-determined backstories that the players had little input on. And, I even named the characters (because we don't really choose our names at birth--we're given names).

You must have a really good group of players. I imagine doing something like that would be very hard to pull off with most players. There seems to be so many high maintenance players around. I haven't encountered very many in my groups that were that easy going.

 

[S'mon]

As far as the BLT goes, I want the cook making the food he likes making! I certainly don't want him making food he dislikes.

Anyway, this is England - we're just happy to get something edible.