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D&D 5E Aren't Short Rest classes *better* in "story-based" games rather than dungeon crawls?

Baron Opal II

Adventurer
The spells cast during downtime? Like, how many spell slots did you use during two weeks of rest where nothing happened?

Does anyone track spell slots during downtime?
It might be a consideration for major rituals or item enchantment if you need to cast specific spells in a limited time frame. Usually not.
 

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The example came up in discussion of always needing extremely tight doom clocks to restrict short rests. Do all of your PC side plots also come with doom clocks as strict as the last five world ending apocalypse engines, or do short rest classes just pinky swear not to short rest every fight or two just because there isn't a doomclock attached to "filler" side plots that don't involve the end of the world?
Time pressure exists if it makes sense in the fiction: rescuing a hostage has a doom clock. Tending the garden does not.

BUT spells are limited by how often you can cast them - if you don't have time pressure, the limit doesn't effectively exist. So without time pressure, yeah, every spell can be cast as often as you want.
 

Whoa, what? Do the individual characters' conflicts get treated as full adventures? Or is everything mundane and calm before the adventure?

That's what I mean by "letting the wizard cast willy-nilly. If they have the slots, that's fine. But if they're level 5, the warlock can sending pretty much indefinitely during downtime but the wizard can only do it twice a day.
If it's downtime, what's the difference?
 

Asisreo

Fiendish Attorney
If it's downtime, what's the difference?
Well, I consider downtime to just be days that aren't specifically the "adventure." I've played in games where 99% of the games were downtime, then 1% was the adventure.

And yes, I consider travel days to be downtime. And if an obstacle comes around, it's just an encounter during downtime up until the adventure location has been arrived. If there's a string of encounters during travel, then it's part of the adventure.

So when your party spends the day at the minister's mansion to get to know all the possible suspects of the crime and no real combat occurs, that's downtime.

When your party spends a day searching the empty ruin for information, that's downtime.

When your party spends the day gathering rumors, that's downtime.

Even the very first tavern day, when all the characters introduce themselves, is a downtime day if all they do is get the quest information and head off the next day.

Surely, these days are important to the overall adventure, yet still has the time-tolerance for a warlock to cast their spells and short rest.
 

Baron Opal II

Adventurer
Well, I consider downtime to just be days that aren't specifically the "adventure." I've played in games where 99% of the games were downtime, then 1% was the adventure.
Our definitions of downtime are different.

Thinking about it, assuming no travelling and combing through a ruin, networking in the city, or otherwise pursuing some non-combative goal, I would consider a maximum of seven short rests through the day. That reserves 10 hours for rest and self-care, seven hours for pursuing goals, and seven hours interspersed for communing with the patron. As long as any social interactions don't take more than an hour (which might not be feasible). That might be a rather fractured day with all of the interruptions.
 
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Well, I consider downtime to just be days that aren't specifically the "adventure." I've played in games where 99% of the games were downtime, then 1% was the adventure.
Okay, then this is a semantic disagreement: if there's an encounter involving dice and challenge and a scene played out - that's not downtime.
And yes, I consider travel days to be downtime. And if an obstacle comes around, it's just an encounter during downtime up until the adventure location has been arrived. If there's a string of encounters during travel, then it's part of the adventure.
Only downtime if we skip the details. Encounters on the road aren't downtime.
So when your party spends the day at the minister's mansion to get to know all the possible suspects of the crime and no real combat occurs, that's downtime.
Social scenes, not downtime
When your party spends a day searching the empty ruin for information, that's downtime.
Search rolls, not downtime
When your party spends the day gathering rumors, that's downtime.
If there are roll or roleplayed moments: not downtime.
Even the very first tavern day, when all the characters introduce themselves, is a downtime day if all they do is get the quest information and head off the next day.
Not downtime
Surely, these days are important to the overall adventure, yet still has the time-tolerance for a warlock to cast their spells and short rest.
Okay, then this is a semantic disagreement: you seem to be defining downtime as "not combat" - I define it as "not active scenes.
 

Asisreo

Fiendish Attorney
Okay, then this is a semantic disagreement: you seem to be defining downtime as "not combat" - I define it as "not active scenes.
Then we'll skip the semantics and focus on the meat of the issue:

During these days of "downtime," "social scenes," "travel days," etc., the characters have a pretty decent clue that the timer on their adventure isn't counting down by the hour. Whether or not you consider a ball downtime or a social scene, the warlock should still be able to cast disguise self and detect thoughts then when the social scene is over, take an hour rest and continue with the story.
 


Asisreo

Fiendish Attorney
Our definitions of downtime are different.

Thinking about it, assuming no travelling and combing through a ruin, networking in the city, or otherwise pursuing some non-combative goal, I would consider a maximum of seven short rests through the day. That reserves 10 hours for rest and self-care, seven hours for pursuing goals, and seven hours interspersed for communing with the patron. As long as any social interactions don't take more than an hour (which might not be feasible). That might be a rather fractured day with all of the interruptions.
Well, our definitions don't matter as long as we realize we're talking about the same thing.

Seven short rests is still plenty for a warlock, and realistically, they don't need to capitalize on every one of those possible short rests.

I'm not advocating for Warlocks to recklessly dump their slots then beg the party to stop. But rather, the opportunities to rest should be more open during these days than a full adventuring day, and more and easier opportunities naturally lead to an increase in those opportunities being seized.
 

Baron Opal II

Adventurer
Well, our definitions don't matter as long as we realize we're talking about the same thing.

Seven short rests is still plenty for a warlock, and realistically, they don't need to capitalize on every one of those possible short rests.

I'm not advocating for Warlocks to recklessly dump their slots then beg the party to stop. But rather, the opportunities to rest should be more open during these days than a full adventuring day, and more and easier opportunities naturally lead to an increase in those opportunities being seized.
I don't disagree, although I quibble with the "opportunities to rest should be more open during these days" statement. A short rest takes an hour. That's time you're not doing something else. That may have differing consequences depending on the situations, but it is still a cost.

Obviously, delving into the Vault of the Drow is very different then scoring an invite and proper dress to the fête for the Baron's newborn heir.

I guess it comes down to that nothing is free, but you should be able to use the advantages you have.
 

Asisreo

Fiendish Attorney
I don't disagree, although I quibble with the "opportunities to rest should be more open during these days" statement. A short rest takes an hour. That's time you're not doing something else.
That kinda depends on your DM, because you're permitted to do certain activities that aren't rigorous.

Perhaps an extroverted DM may think that talking isn't as rigorous of an activity as reading a book, so you can parley while still gaining the benefits of a short rest.
 

Baron Opal II

Adventurer
That kinda depends on your DM, because you're permitted to do certain activities that aren't rigorous.

Perhaps an extroverted DM may think that talking isn't as rigorous of an activity as reading a book, so you can parley while still gaining the benefits of a short rest.
Then the short rest isn't really a cost, is it?
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Well, our definitions don't matter as long as we realize we're talking about the same thing.

Seven short rests is still plenty for a warlock, and realistically, they don't need to capitalize on every one of those possible short rests.

I'm not advocating for Warlocks to recklessly dump their slots then beg the party to stop. But rather, the opportunities to rest should be more open during these days than a full adventuring day, and more and easier opportunities naturally lead to an increase in those opportunities being seized.
IME the warlock simply needs to utter the words "we should take a short rest" & lacking anything like medium duration buffs that would be affected ort whatever every player other than artillerist artificer says "sure let's barricade the door", "hey bob can you cast tiny hut" or whatever. Needing to make it to "the fête for the Baron's newborn heir" has an obvious time limit but needing to not make the outlander expend no actions effort or skill use to feed the party for another day is the sort of very much non-cost that often is the "cost" of taking another short rest without a doom clock
 

Baron Opal II

Adventurer
Well, @tetrasodium, what I'm stating is that there is (or should be) at minimum a time cost to anything. In some situations that cost could be trivial (in which I think I'm in at least partial agreement with @Asisreo ), but it is never always trivial in non-combat situations.
 

Then we'll skip the semantics and focus on the meat of the issue:

During these days of "downtime," "social scenes," "travel days," etc., the characters have a pretty decent clue that the timer on their adventure isn't counting down by the hour. Whether or not you consider a ball downtime or a social scene, the warlock should still be able to cast disguise self and detect thoughts then when the social scene is over, take an hour rest and continue with the story.
The thing is - I don't handle downtime the same way I handle the other two. In downtime, it doesn't matter if the warlock casts any spells or how many they can cast. Social scenes might be right next to other scenes: if a fight breaks out at the ball, the warlock can't take an hour to rest while everyone else (including the ncs) waits for her, so timing is an issue. Travel technically involves tracking, because theoretically the next encounter could happen before the next rest.
 

To respond to the OP, from personal experience playing a fighter. I took one of the new maneuvers that boosts social rolls. Essentially, it’s a free use of powers. There is usually 1 to 2 social encounters in a given day. (Our adventure is primarily centred around Waterdeep). I can use all my maneuver uses in a single social encounter - and 3 rolls is usually plenty. Adding 1d8 to a persuasion check is nice. Then there’s usually an hour or two as we prep for our adventure which lets me get all my uses back with a short rest.

Most social encounters don’t happen back to back so I always seem to have all my charges for an encounter.

so, I have to agree(from my perspective) it’s more useful during the investigation/social phase of an adventure and very limited in a dungeon crawl where you have to use the charges sparingly.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Well, @tetrasodium, what I'm stating is that there is (or should be) at minimum a time cost to anything. In some situations that cost could be trivial (in which I think I'm in at least partial agreement with @Asisreo ), but it is never always trivial in non-combat situations.
Yes there should be a time cost, except the structure of o5e's ruleset if often designed to subordinate the narrative rather than support it by trivializing the gm's toolkit when it comes to options other than yet another doomclock.
edit: That causes short rest classes to be "better in story based games".
 
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Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
The thing is - I don't handle downtime the same way I handle the other two. In downtime, it doesn't matter if the warlock casts any spells or how many they can cast. Social scenes might be right next to other scenes: if a fight breaks out at the ball, the warlock can't take an hour to rest while everyone else (including the ncs) waits for her, so timing is an issue. Travel technically involves tracking, because theoretically the next encounter could happen before the next rest.
Let's say a 9th level party decides that it is worth the time to build a small fortress. To save money they're going to perform as much of the work themselves as they can. Two questions:
  1. Would you consider construction to be downtime?
  2. When calculating the time required to build the fortress, would you take into account that a 9th Level Wizard can only cast Wall of Stone twice per day, but a 9th Level Genie (Dao) Warlock can cast Wall of Stone approximately 24 times per day? (Assuming 240 minutes of casting/concentration and 11 short rests.) Or would you ignore how often each class can cast their spells?
 

To respond to the OP, from personal experience playing a fighter. I took one of the new maneuvers that boosts social rolls. Essentially, it’s a free use of powers. There is usually 1 to 2 social encounters in a given day. (Our adventure is primarily centred around Waterdeep). I can use all my maneuver uses in a single social encounter - and 3 rolls is usually plenty. Adding 1d8 to a persuasion check is nice. Then there’s usually an hour or two as we prep for our adventure which lets me get all my uses back with a short rest.

Most social encounters don’t happen back to back so I always seem to have all my charges for an encounter.

so, I have to agree(from my perspective) it’s more useful during the investigation/social phase of an adventure and very limited in a dungeon crawl where you have to use the charges sparingly.
I admit to being confused by the distinction you're making between social encounter's and adventure. Why are the social encounters something that takes place outside of the adventure?
 

Baron Opal II

Adventurer
Let's say a 9th level party decides that it is worth the time to build a small fortress. To save money they're going to perform as much of the work themselves as they can. Two questions:
  1. Would you consider construction to be downtime?
  2. When calculating the time required to build the fortress, would you take into account that a 9th Level Wizard can only cast Wall of Stone twice per day, but a 9th Level Genie (Dao) Warlock can cast Wall of Stone approximately 24 times per day? (Assuming 240 minutes of casting/concentration and 11 short rests.) Or would you ignore how often each class can cast their spells?
From my point of view, they would be limited to 14 walls of stone. Also, the PCs might want to consider hiring an engineer to make sure all of those walls are set correctly, regardless of caster.

And that warlock had better sculpt a shrine to his patron in there somewhere.
 

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