D&D 5E Aren't Short Rest classes *better* in "story-based" games rather than dungeon crawls?

[Baron Opal II]

Yes there should be a time cost, except the structure of o5e's ruleset if often designed to subordinate the narrative rather than support it by trivializing the gm's toolkit when it comes to options other than yet another doomclock.
edit: That causes short rest classes to be "better in story based games".

Write new, better rules.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I admit to being confused by the distinction you're making between social encounter's and adventure. Why are the social encounters something that takes place outside of the adventure?

I mean a dungeon crawl. Social or combat, It's all Adventure!

But in a dungeon crawl, time is slower and encounters happen frequently. Using your 3X/short rest power requires a bit more care to use: do I use it all in this one encounter? do I save it for the next room?

Whereas, in town, when I know, "I need to question the noble in the morning." and then, "I need to go inquire about information about the dungeon with my contact in the afternoon" and then, "in the evening we are going to go into the catacombs".

Essentially, time in between each 'encounter' is handwaived. I can short rest before each one and have all my short rest uses back. By the time we go to the catacombs, I have them all refreshed but now have to use them more sparingly.

 

[FrogReaver]

Also, I see the wizard brought up often and I believe that I may have mentioned them as well, but upon reflection I think the wizard is irrelevant.

The wizard isn't a warlock replacement or vice-versa. Their playstyles and approaches to adventures are too different to be properly compared.

You are on to something here. We shouldn't be comparing a warlock to a wizard for this discussion, we should be comparing a short rest warlock to a long rest warlock - all else being equal.

Most people go with times 3 to convert short rest resources into long rest ones (I think times 2 is a better conversion but let's use the more popular one). Is a Warlock going to be stronger if he starts the adventuring day off with 6 long rest slots from levels 1-10 or 9 slots of 5th level from 11-16, or 12 slots of 5th level for level 17+?

Does anyone think that overall the warlock with short rest slots is stronger than the warlock with long rest slots? I know I don't. Does anyone?

 

[Asisreo]

Most people go with times 3 to convert short rest resources into long rest ones (I think times 2 is a better conversion but let's use the more popular one). Is a Warlock going to be stronger if he starts the adventuring day off with 6 long rest slots from levels 1-10 or 9 slots of 5th level from 11-16, or 12 slots of 5th level for level 17+?

Now you're comparing a homebrew warlock with the RAW version and giving it access to more slots at once than they ordinarily would have.

The Long rest version would absolutely be overtuned. Even in a long combat, taking 5-6 rounds, the warlock gets to cast a maximum spell slot every round. This could cause a serious inter-party balance issue. Warlocks are balanced because they can't use those high-level slots all at once.

If you want to compare a long-rest warlock vs a short-rest warlock, why not use the RAW version of both.

For example, a RAW long-rest warlock would have either at-will abilities or long-rest abilities. For example, Mage Armor and Bane. A purely short-rest warlock would have at-will abilities and regular spells. Honestly, they don't look too different, but the long rest one ensures they have access to spells that capitalize on their limitation and at-will capabilities that don't rely on resting at all.

Which one is stronger is up to debate. Personally, though, I'd give it to the short-rest oriented warlock.

 

[FrogReaver]

Let's say a 9th level party decides that it is worth the time to build a small fortress. To save money they're going to perform as much of the work themselves as they can. Two questions:

1. Would you consider construction to be downtime?
2. When calculating the time required to build the fortress, would you take into account that a 9th Level Wizard can only cast Wall of Stone twice per day, but a 9th Level Genie (Dao) Warlock can cast Wall of Stone approximately 24 times per day? (Assuming 240 minutes of casting/concentration and 11 short rests.) Or would you ignore how often each class can cast their spells?

No one is disputing that it can sometimes be 'useful' to have slots recharge on short rest - as your eample illustrates. I actually think the Wall of Stone use you cite is one of the best case uses for the warlock and short rest recharges that i've heard. It's definitely a spell I'll be taking on my Warlocks in the future. The question really is around how useful and how often such scenarios arise.

 

[FrogReaver]

Now you're comparing a homebrew warlock with the RAW version and giving it access to more slots at once than they ordinarily would have.

The Long rest version would absolutely be overtuned. Even in a long combat, taking 5-6 rounds, the warlock gets to cast a maximum spell slot every round. This could cause a serious inter-party balance issue. Warlocks are balanced because they can't use those high-level slots all at once.

So your position now is that we shouldn't compare the warlock to a wizard, nor to a warlock that refreshes slots on a long rest (but gets more slots). It's almost like your current position is that we shouldn't compare the warlock to anything - and I don't think that is a strong position.

The title of this thread: "Aren't Short Rest classes better in "story-based" games rather than dungeon crawls?" I think it's safe to say that a warlock in what you call a more 'story-based' game will probably outperform a warlock in a dungeon crawl. But this is where the wizard or long rest slot recharging warlock comes into the discussion - the short rest recharge warlock is likely not going to outperform either of them in a more 'story based' game - even though the short rest spell recharge warlock can be more time efficient as certain spells than either of those casters can - but for efficency to matter you have to be in a scenario where that increase in effeciency means the wizard or long rest recharge warlock wouldn't have completed the task in time for whatever happens next.

I do think you make a good case for bringing a short rest warlock along though, as he does offer some capabilities that traditional casters are not going to be particularly efficient at - especially when not in the dungeon. So if you already have a wizard in the party, a warlock makes an excellent 2nd arcane caster.

If you want to compare a long-rest warlock vs a short-rest warlock, why not use the RAW version of both.


For example, a RAW long-rest warlock would have either at-will abilities or long-rest abilities. For example, Mage Armor and Bane. A purely short-rest warlock would have at-will abilities and regular spells. Honestly, they don't look too different, but the long rest one ensures they have access to spells that capitalize on their limitation and at-will capabilities that don't rely on resting at all.

Which one is stronger is up to debate. Personally, though, I'd give it to the short-rest oriented warlock.

• There's not a RAW warlock that recharges spell slots on a long rest
• The best way to compare the impact of short rest vs long rest slots is to keep all else equal

 

[jmartkdr2]

Let's say a 9th level party decides that it is worth the time to build a small fortress. To save money they're going to perform as much of the work themselves as they can. Two questions:

1. Would you consider construction to be downtime?
2. When calculating the time required to build the fortress, would you take into account that a 9th Level Wizard can only cast Wall of Stone twice per day, but a 9th Level Genie (Dao) Warlock can cast Wall of Stone approximately 24 times per day? (Assuming 240 minutes of casting/concentration and 11 short rests.) Or would you ignore how often each class can cast their spells?

Yes and yes. Are walls of stone permanent?

 

[FrogReaver]

Yes and yes. Are walls of stone permanent?

If you concentrate on them for the 10 minute duration.

 

[jmartkdr2]

If you concentrate on them for the 10 minute duration.

Then a dao warlock is a hella good contractor.

I'm not sure that makes short rest classes better at story-driven games, sine "building a castle" isn't necessarily a story point.

 

[tetrasodium]

Then a dao warlock is a hella good contractor.

I'm not sure that makes short rest classes better at story-driven games, sine "building a castle" isn't necessarily a story point.

Replace wall of stone with fireball heat metal or whatever "iconic" spell & the comparison becomes both easier as well as more relevant to an average game of d&d

 

[Asisreo]

I think it's safe to say that a warlock in what you call a more 'story-based' game will probably outperform a warlock in a dungeon crawl. But this is where the wizard or long rest slot recharging warlock comes into the discussion

But how so? Because Warlocks and Wizards are different playstyles and different approaches. It's like saying a wizard outperforms the Paladin. Yes, in their niche, but not in the paladin's.

But what's the warlock's niche? They're too customizable to make a generalized statement. I can make a warlock dedicated to at-will utility in a way a wizard can't replicate. Because while a wizard is constrained to their rituals spell list, a Ritual Warlock is not. While a half-caster gish is more durable and have better at-will performance, the warlock gish has access to more powerful spells earlier on and has more adaptibility.

There's not a RAW warlock that recharges spell slots on a long rest

There are RAW Warlocks that recover spells on long rest. For example, the Polymorph invocation. It's a powerful spell, but it can only be used once a long rest for the warlock.

 

[FrogReaver]

But how so? Because Warlocks and Wizards are different playstyles and different approaches. It's like saying a wizard outperforms the Paladin. Yes, in their niche, but not in the paladin's.

Because classes don't exist in a vaccum. Wizard's and Warlocks niche mostly overlaps. Kind of like how Paladin's and Fighter's niches mostly overlap.

But what's the warlock's niche? They're too customizable to make a generalized statement. I can make a warlock dedicated to at-will utility in a way a wizard can't replicate. Because while a wizard is constrained to their rituals spell list, a Ritual Warlock is not. While a half-caster gish is more durable and have better at-will performance, the warlock gish has access to more powerful spells earlier on and has more adaptibility.

Scrodinger's Warlock???

But more importantly, so what if your warlock 'might' can be a better ritual caster than a wizard (he still has to find all those rituals whereas the wizard can learn them from all the spells he gets to learn.) Rituals outside of a few specific ones that are mostly wizard rituals just aren't very strong.

There are RAW Warlocks that recover spells on long rest. For example, the Polymorph invocation. It's a powerful spell, but it can only be used once a long rest for the warlock.

Why are you turning this into semantics? You know exactly what I was talking about and it was definitely not that.

 

[FrogReaver]

Replace wall of stone with fireball heat metal or whatever "iconic" spell & the comparison becomes both easier as well as more relevant to an average game of d&d

Not at all.... The utility of being able to construct walls when not time pressured (and you can short rest often) is much different than the utility of a spell that can only be cast in combat is only useful in combat.

 

[tetrasodium]

Not at all.... The utility of being able to construct walls when not time pressured (and you can short rest often) is much different than the utility of a spell that can only be cast in combat is only useful in combat.

combats can occur when not pressed for time. Take 'ye olde treasure map' as an example. It doesn't matter if the party finishes murdering reverything in the way of them getting the treasure today or next week.

 

[FrogReaver]

Then a dao warlock is a hella good contractor.

I'm not sure that makes short rest classes better at story-driven games, sine "building a castle" isn't necessarily a story point.

Sure, but it could certainly tie to a fairly common story point. Helping NPC factions defend themselves.

Can also use it to create choke points in many places that PC's can fall back to if they notice a strong force moving toward them. I could find tons of uses for fairly quickly creating minumum of 60ft long 10ft tall walls.

 

[FrogReaver]

combats can occur when not pressed for time. Take 'ye olde treasure map' as an example. It doesn't matter if the party finishes murdering reverything in the way of them getting the treasure today or next week.

Much different still. One can create as much wall as they need by simply short resting again and again. One can never have more than 2 fireballs prepared for the next encounter (assuming warlock below level 11)

 

[Asisreo]

Scrodinger's Warlock???

No. Schrodinger's wizard is when you assume a wizard has access to all their spells/features at once. But pointing out a warlock's specialization is the opposite because they aren't specialized if they're good at multiple things at once.

But more importantly, so what if your warlock 'might' can be a better ritual caster than a wizard (he still has to find all those rituals whereas the wizard can learn them from all the spells he gets to learn.) Rituals outside of a few specific ones that are mostly wizard rituals just aren't very strong

The warlock doesn't have to find their first two rituals. Which can be from any class. So a warlock can take Purify Food and Drink and Unseen Servant from 1st-level. Something no other class can do, no matter how utility-based they are. And any ritual spell found can be added to the warlock's book as well as the wizard's book. In fact, this is why the warlock is superior, because they can transcribe the ritual spell regardless of the class list, meaning they can copy any ritual the wizard can and more. So if you're playing a ritual-based character, the warlock is a better choice.

Why are you turning this into semantics? You know exactly what I was talking about and it was definitely not that.

If you don't mean limitations by long rests, I don't know what you mean.

Let's assume the warlock is in a structured adventure where a short rest in-between was impossible. How would you make this warlock competent? Well, taking invocations and pacts that give powerful abilities per long rest or at-will would need to be a priority, such that those two spell slots go the extra mile.

A warlock with Bane can debuff the enemy. Yes, other classes can also cast bane, but I have a hard time believing that the cleric's or bard's niche is close to the warlock's. So in terms of choosing a character and assuming you want to have the warlock's niche, taking bane as a long-rest dependent warlock makes no difference. They'd also favor long duration spells over instantaneous spells because they can stretch the spells potential further, so the slot would work to it's maximum potential.

 

[Stoutstien]

Almost all of the invocations that are cast X once per LR using a slot are crap even if the party can expect to have no SRs in a regular basic. If anything they are objectively worse when you have less slots per day.

Blowing a invocation on casting bane once and it still eats a slot is just bad.

 

[Asisreo]

Almost all of the invocations that are cast X once per LR using a slot are crap even if the party can expect to have no SRs in a regular basic. If anything they are objectively worse when you have less slots per day.

How so? In effect, they give you an extra spell known, which increases your versatility. And whether you cast Bane or Arms of Hadar, the spell slot consumed would be gone until the next long rest anyways.

Bane is a good first-level spell on the warlock's list. Probably one of, if not THE, best. It's a great debuffing spell that targets an ability score that's uncommon especially for the lower level threats you'll face when you take it.

And by no means are you stuck with it on higher levels, you're free and encouraged to swap it out with more fitting high-level invocations later on.

 

[jmartkdr2]

combats can occur when not pressed for time. Take 'ye olde treasure map' as an example. It doesn't matter if the party finishes murdering reverything in the way of them getting the treasure today or next week.

Presumably, the enemy in a combat isn't going to wait for you to take a nap so you can fireball them again. How many fireballs per fight is relevant, and not unlimited.

Which is also true for LR classes, for what it's worth.