Argh!! Useless Rogues

[Kilroy]

Detect thoughts takes three rounds and reveals surface thoughts only, and as long as you specifically tell the DM you aren't thinking anything incongruous (captain of the guard thinking of checking work schedules, diplomat thinking about how boring this checkpoint is, and wishing he were somewhere else, etc.) then detect thoughts wouldn't be that hard.

Unfortunantly, "I'm thinking of something the guy I'm disguised as would think of" is exactly what made the DM ask for the DC 100 Epic Bluff check the only time I've ever tried to use disguise. One of the people in the employ of the BBEG was a doppleganger. I've never found Disguise to be useful, certainly not enough to waste a precious skill on compared to something that gets rolled several times a night. It was the same sort of HOW HARD?! shock I had when I tried to use my seldom used but maxed jump skill to go up 10 feet last campaign.

I'm not saying that skills have no counter, I'm, saying that spells have their own problems, and these problems are significant enough that skills can be more useful in many situations -- enough that a rogue is quite useful.

Skills are often useful, I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that with more than 45 official skills and how infrequent but important many of them are, a rogue's 4-6 skills more than a fighter or monk doesn't add much character value. People have used a ton of skills and feats in specific situations to show how useful a rogue with them can be. The trouble is, any one given rogue isn't going to have the vast majority of them when they need them, and can't get them. A wizard with cheap scrolls can cover a lot more wierd stuff, and if they find out they need specific utility, can learn or research or spell pool a spell, while a rogue is stuck with the skills they picked last level and can't change them to fit a situation, unless they have UMD and a huge Charisma (using UMD is way too hard, IMHO). A cleric with 700 different spells available, who automtically knows every last one, has a serious advantage over a rogue who has to pick exactly which 8 skills he knows, and is stuck with them for life.

Rogues throughout fantasy literature are famous and popular for their cunning and versitility, and it sounds like that's how people in this thread see them in game, too. The problem is that the mechanics don't support this. A rogue is only slightly less limited in known skills than any other character. In a way, d20 is a big step down for rogue types, because they've gone from a default of "DM's discression for style" for many things to "You have 0 ranks in those other 34 skills, so you suck at them". Knowing 15% of the available skills to the fighters 5%, when compared to a caster having access to 100% of the spells that replicate them, kinda sucks.

 

[Nail]

A cleric with 700 different spells available, who automtically knows every last one, has a serious advantage over a rogue who has to pick exactly which 8 skills he knows, and is stuck with them for life.

Okay, I can see where you're coming from. But consider:

• Like many other PC classes, what is useful depends on DM style. For example: We've *never* used the Balance skill in play (levels 1 - 18) in my current game. So whoever skipped that skill made out well.
• Although there are lots of skills, only some of them are used frequently enough to be useful. IOW, there is a "short list" of good skills the Rog picks from. Including skills like Knowledge (Religion) in the list the Rogue must decide on is disingenuous.
• Combining the above 2 points: the list of actually useful skills is not very big.
• Rogues don't just get 8 skills. They might be human, and they might have a decent Int.
• Rogues have far more skills as class skills than any other class. So sure, the Rogue may have "only" 6 more skills than the Ftr or Clr, but neither of those get such juicy skills as Spot, Search......
• Skills don't get "used up". They are perfect for actions that you're likely to do many times in a day. In our campaign, our Rog uses Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, and Listen constantly. In a previous campaign, the Appraise, Spot and Sense Motive skills were widely used.

I sounds to me like you've just been burned too many times playing Rogues with your group. Perhaps there's a more fundamental problem here.......

 

[Kilroy]

IIRC, the damage per hit was 1d4(weapon) + 5(magic) +3 (spell) +7(Str) +2d6(holy) +1d6 (shocking) +8d6(sneak). The average is 56 hp. He's a 2 weapon Rogue, with extra attacks from Boots of Speed and Righteous Wrath.

As for the fighter, power attack, and crits: The fighter is buffed too, but could not have done as much damage without several crits. Power Attack is good......but only if the opponent's AC is low and only if his weapon is two handed; neither of which was true. Crits are fine....but everyone gets 'em, even rogues.

At 12th level, our ronin is currently doing something like 2d8+2d6(holy)+1d6(fire)+3(weapon bonus)+2(weapon spec)+20(2 handed str, exotic weapon master)+6(3 point power attack) for an average of about 50 a hit. The difference between a rogue and a warrior is that the warrior doubles nearly everything on a crit, and I think he crits on a 17 now. He frequently lands multiple 100 point plus crits and cleaves a round. Our ninja can't even come close to that.

Huh. Epic, eh? ...and you still couldn't hit? Hmmm. We're not Epic yet, but.......that's not been our experience.

Even at 18th level, an even fight is, say, a very old black dragon (AC 35 naked and unbuffed). If you're coming in clothed and buffed, he probably is too, as a 9th level sorc, with, say, Shield, Displacement, Mirror Image, Haste and Stoneskin, with enough slots left over to recast them all twice. Dragons aren't poor (141,000 gp net value) and a lot of that is magic, so they usually aren't naked either. Assume a Ring of Protection +3, Bracers +4 and a +4 dex item, at least. Assume you fail the Frightful Presence save (which is probable) he's effectivly AC 52, with a bunch of mirror images soaking the first few hits, and displacement making him totally immune to sneak attack. This is based on a specific dragon our DM threw at us at about that level several campaigns ago, and similar to one we just ran over in a published module. With the rogue you have listed above, (about a +23 total to hit?) your best attack still only hits on a nat 20, and you do no sneak attack damage. At least that's what I usually run into. And that's only if you're lucky enough to run into the dragon on the ground.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

What did you use to get that many ranged sneak attacks a round? I've always found that hard after things aren't flat footed without something like a Ring of Blinking or Doomtide. Itterative sneak attacks are the only thing that make sneak attack (and dual wield for that matter) powerful, but I've only rarely seen them work for a rogue. I could see playing a rogue again if this was at all reliable.

I found a feat (can't remember where from now) that let me threaten at 15 feet with my daggers. This meant that I could flank from a distance. Halflings get +2 Dex, +1 for size, and +1 racial for throwing items, effectively giving them a +3 advantage over any other race at first level (from PHB, besides gnomes, who they would have a +2 advantage over.) Point Black Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Two Weapon Fighting. By the time your BaB is +6/+1, you are getting 4 attacks a round. Weapon Focus gives +1 to attack, Specialization gives +1 to damage, and Point Black gives +1 to both.

Assuming Rogue7/Fighter4, you will have a total of 7 feats. That allows for all of those feats, plus the one that allows you to threaten at 15 ft. You BaB would be +9/+4, and your are doing +4d6 for sneak attack. Lets start adding modifiers!!~~~

+9/+4 BaB, after TWP and Rapid Shot --> +5/+5/+5/+0
Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, Size Modifier, Racial Ability ---> +4
so we're at +9/+9/+9/+4.
We'll even be lienent and say for stats you rolled a 16 for dex, so your dex started at 18. By 11th level, you will have got to boost it up 2 points, so its now 20. It will be assumed also that by 11th level you will have either Gloves of Dex +4, something that allows you to use Cat's Grace x-times per day, or a caster would cast this on you. That's not making your Dex 24, which is a +7!
+16/+16/+16/+11
By 11th level, a rogue could EASILY get 4 magical daggers (they're EVERYWHERE. Who DOESNT find like 4 +1 daggers in a dungeon??) and you could probably even have some +2's, maybe a +2 returning, a whole slew of +1 returnings. We'll assume for simplicity that every dagger you throw is at least +1.
+17/+17/+17/+12
Mind you, flanking gives you +2 to attack, so you're effectively:

**>> +19/+19/+19/+14. <<**
If you're not hitting 3 times a round with that on average, something's wrong. Mind you, Improved Invisibility and things like Blink will also deny them their dex bonuses.

Lets add damage~~~
1d4 dagger +1(magic) +4(strength. by then you can easily have a modified 18 str. this is assuming that you built your rogue to be a fighter, and strength is his second highest stat.) +1 (point blank) +2(specialization) +14(average damage for 4d6 sneak attack) = 24 on average per hit. That's not counting if anyone else in the party is pumping you up for damage.

***>>>> 24*3= 72 damage. a round. average. <<<<<***

To add insult to injury, Dragon put out a feat that allows you to add your Dex bonus to damage for ranged weapons within 30' that you have Weapon Focus for. Swap 2 more levels of fightrer for 2 rogue levels, which effectively drops your sneak attakc damage to 3d6, keeps your BaB the same, and adds +7 more damage.

Now your average damage is 2(dagger) +1(magic) +4(strength) +1(point blank) +2(specializaton) +10(sneak attack) +7(dex) = 27
27*3= 81. ON AVERAGE.

Mind you, if you crit, you are doubling your weapon damage (2), your magic modifier for the weapon (1), your strength (4), point blank(1), specialization(2), and dex(7), so that's ON AVERAGE 17 more points of damage on a crit (+/- 2 points for the dagger damage.)

You crit on a 19-20, which is a 10% chance. You get 4 attacks a round, so the chances of getting AT LEAST one crit (threat) are 35%. Doesn't seem that high, but when you look at it like this... after 3 rounds, the probability that you get AT LEAST one crit is 73%. Thats assuming that your crit range hasn't been raised.

So, with the First route, your MAX damage in a round is 108 (with no crits) and your MINIMUM (assuming you hit once) is 23. That's not bad.

You can also suppliment the 15-foot-threat range with something like Improved Invisibility, Blink, and I *think* theres a way to do it with Darkness and hiding? At any rate, soemone who is a GOOD rogue and studies up would have plenty of backup strategy.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

At 12th level, our ronin is currently doing something like 2d8+2d6(holy)+1d6(fire)+3(weapon bonus)+2(weapon spec)+20(2 handed str, exotic weapon master)+6(3 point power attack) for an average of about 50 a hit. The difference between a rogue and a warrior is that the warrior doubles nearly everything on a crit, and I think he crits on a 17 now. He frequently lands multiple 100 point plus crits and cleaves a round. Our ninja can't even come close to that.

Number of attacks a round comes in to play also. Sure, at 12th level he's getting average of 50 damage a hit... but he only gets 3 attacks, and each attack has an incrimently less chance of hitting.

I'm not saying that the rogue that I just posted can substitute for a fighter. No, not at all... in fact he'd be pretty worthless without a fighter in the group (after the first round.) I ust wanted to prove that rogues CAN do monty damage too.

D&D is all about teamwork. Without the support of a team, ANY class has tons of weaknesses. It's all about finding a balance. What do you give away as opposed to what do you gain? A Rogue can save the party a lot of hassle and can also save from the caster casting a lot of extra spells (which she could instead use, for say... combat?)

 

[Synthetik Fish]

BTW, (I'm not too up to date on 3.5)

What are all the instances where a creature loses their dex bonus to AC? I knwo a rogue can sneak attack while flanking, and:
While Invisible
When the enemy is suprised
In darkness (assuming that they can see or have blindfight or something.)
While Blinking
While enemy is Stunned
While enemy is Held (as per spell)
While an opponent is pinned
While an opponent is grappling (these two make for great combos with monks and fighters who
are grapplers...)

Anything else?

 

[Kilroy]

I found a feat (can't remember where from now) that let me threaten at 15 feet with my daggers.

...

To add insult to injury, Dragon put out a feat that allows you to add your Dex bonus to damage for ranged weapons within 30' that you have Weapon Focus for.

Wow, those really powerful. Those totally change the damage ability for rogues.

Where are they from and what are they called?

 

[Nail]

Even at 18th level, an even fight is, say, a very old black dragon (AC 35 naked and unbuffed).

Black Dragon Wyrm, actually. AC 39 unbuffed.

If you're coming in clothed and buffed, he probably is too, as a 9th level sorc, with, say, Shield, Displacement, Mirror Image, Haste and Stoneskin, with enough slots left over to recast them all twice.

First of all: You're in trouble if you attack a dragon when he's prepared. Why is it you assume the dragon is prepared? (I'm guessing it's because your DM has your enemies prepared at all times, regardless of PC tactics....but I could be wrong. Either way, we're no longer talking about how wimpy Rogues now, are we?)

Second: Greater Dispel Magic. At caster level 13, up against casters of 16th to 20th level, those spells stand little chance.

Third: In our case, the dragon wasn’t prepared. I located him with Discern Location, we buffed, then we Greater Teleported to right beside him. We had the surprise round....and it went downhill for the dragon from there.

Assume you fail the Frightful Presence save (which is probable)...

Unless the PCs are all immune to fear. Check out the description of the spell Heroes' Feast. Did I mention we were immune to acid? Guess what the dragon tried round 1?

With the rogue you have listed above, (about a +23 total to hit?) your best attack still only hits on a nat 20, and you do no sneak attack damage.

The Rog 16/Ftr2 attack bonus was (I think....remember, I'm not the player...he might be using Weapon Finesse, or have some other feats/equipment of which I’m not aware....): +2(Ftr) +12(Rog) +1 (weapon focus) +7(Str) +5(Magic) +1(Haste) +3(Recitation) +2(Righteous Wrath) +2(flank)

Total: +35

That's a tad over the +23 you estimated.

He was using two weapons, with 2 extra attacks at full attack bonus from the boots of speed and Righteous Wrath. If I've got the AB right, then that is an attack routine that looks like this:

+33/+33/+33/+33/+28/+28/+23

Since he's flanking, he gets the sneak attack on each hit. Given a target AC of 39, the average damage per round would be 249 hp. (Remember: that’s average....and it looks like one round our Rogue was a little lucky.) I can show you the calculations if you’d like.

 

[Kilroy]

Okay, I can see where you're coming from. But consider:

• Like many other PC classes, what is useful depends on DM style. For example: We've *never* used the Balance skill in play (levels 1 - 18) in my current game. So whoever skipped that skill made out well.
• Although there are lots of skills, only some of them are used frequently enough to be useful. IOW, there is a "short list" of good skills the Rog picks from. Including skills like Knowledge (Religion) in the list the Rogue must decide on is disingenuous.

• 
  
  My 'short list' of rogue skills that are really important:
  
  Search
  Spot
  Listen
  Hide
  Move Silently
  Disable Device
  Open Lock
  Use Magic Device
  Bluff
  Sense Motive
  Craft[Poisonmaking]
  Craft[Traps]
  Escape Artist
  Gather Information
  Diplomacy
  Knowledge[dungeoneering]
  Sleight of Hand
  Tumble
  
  Even with the junk trimmed, a normal human rogue still has 18 "important" skills to pick from and only gets 9. Which of those 9 go? Without knowing what's in store for the character down the road, that's a really hard call to make, and there's no way to fix it once it't done.
  
  
  

  [*]Rogues don't just get 8 skills. They might be human, and they might have a decent Int.

  
  That's true for everyone though, so I don't counting that as something that gives rogues an advantage.
  
  

  [*]Rogues have far more skills as class skills than any other class. So sure, the Rogue may have "only" 6 more skills than the Ftr or Clr, but neither of those get such juicy skills as Spot, Search......

  
  This would be really powerful, if anyone couldn't get this with 1 level of rogue (or monk, for the cleric). Rough for the cleric, but not so bad for the fighter.
  
  

  [*]Skills don't get "used up". They are perfect for actions that you're likely to do many times in a day. In our campaign, our Rog uses Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, and Listen constantly. In a previous campaign, the Appraise, Spot and Sense Motive skills were widely used.

This is useful if you know which skills you're going to be using frequently. Trouble is, if you know this, just take a level of rogue for the skill caps, then take the frequent skills cross-class, or take a feat or the right cleric domain to get them in class. Rogues are too weak without knowing in advance what skills a particular campaign and DM will require, and they're the least able to adapt after finding this info out painfully late. A stealth/dungeon focused rogue needs too many skills to be a good social rogue, and the same in reverse. If you don't know before you start which one you're going to need, you're boned. If you happen to need both, you're stuck being just as bad at major parts of your job as anyone else would be.

I sounds to me like you've just been burned too many times playing Rogues with your group. Perhaps there's a more fundamental problem here.......

Yeah, there's a good bit of that too. Having a DM for my main group who doesn't allow partial charges on surprise actions and only recently (post-my-rogues) started allowing multiple sneak attacks a round probably doesn't help my impression.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

My 'short list' of rogue skills that are really important:

Search
Spot
Listen
Hide
Move Silently
Disable Device
Open Lock
Use Magic Device
Bluff
Sense Motive
Craft[Poisonmaking]
Craft[Traps]
Escape Artist
Gather Information
Diplomacy
Knowledge[dungeoneering]
Sleight of Hand
Tumble

Even with the junk trimmed, a normal human rogue still has 18 "important" skills to pick from and only gets 9. Which of those 9 go?

I'd scratch Use Magic Device, Sense Motive, both Crafts, Escape Artist, and Diplomacy from my list of "really important" rogue skills right off the bat with no hesitation. That's 6. A "normal" human rogue in my opinion has more than a 10 Int, but assuming I have to come up with 3 more: Gather Information, Knowledge (dungeoneering), and Sleight of Hand.

I've played several rogues who didn't have any of those 9 skills, and it's never been a problem for me. I'm not saying they aren't "nice" or even quite useful, but I don't consider them "important."