Arguments and assumptions against multi classing

DMG page 97: "An Oathbreaker is a paladin who breaks his or her sacred oaths"..."the paladin replaces the features specific to his or her sacred oath with Oathbreaker features"..."you can later allow the paladin to atone and become a true paladin once more"


I.e. paladins can still fall in 5e, there are even specific rules to cover it.
 

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And yet, we are all aware of the 5e mantra, rulings not rules.
So rulings are ok for stealth rules, and certain spells and and and...but when it comes to PC's being stripped of powers then the letter of the RAW must be adhered to otherwise you're abusing rule 0. :erm:

These rulings require more scrutiny because they would have the potential to ruin a character or player's fun in a big way.
 
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Folks,

Apparently, several of you need a reminder that EN World asks you to leave real-world politics and religion at the door.

Continued commentary on real-world religion will get you a week's vacation from the site. No further warning will be given. I hope that's clear. If it isn't, please take it to e-mail or PM with a member of the moderation staff.
]
 

The point is that the multiclassing is not the problem; as illustrated by single class 5th level PCs being more powerful than multiclass ones, generally speaking.

except It was an example of a 5th level character who was more powerful then 4 other 5th level character by multi classing right, and it was a mistake I wasn't trying to min max, I was trying to lessen my power form being a 5th level cleric.
 

We have a PC doing that right now because of story! He is a Fighter (EK) and our group met with a spirit or deity (unclear to us) of Vengeance and the PC is now going to start taking paladin levels to go Oath of Vengeance.

That sounds great and working as intended. If the Paladin blatantly goes against this Oath how would you have the benefactor react?

My theory (and it seems I am in a minority) is that the very being that GRANTS you powers has their own motivations for doing so, and if you go against that beings plans then they would take back the powers they granted to you to accomplish their goals. It’s seems that is written all over the descriptions for clerics, druids, Paladins and warlocks. There is no explicitly stated rule that says that, but it’s all over the descriptive text.

Those powers are controlled by the DM as the PC only controls himself. There has to be some give and take there, it can’t be the PC tells the DM “No it’s my PC so I control the whole situation between my PC and its power/diety/patron.
 

1.) I can make 'overpowered' single class characters. Accordingly, I'm not worried if we can do it with multi-class, too.

2.) As long as the character origin and development tell a good story, I do not have any concerns about it being a multi-class. If you're building a cleric 1, warlock 5, bad 6, paladin 8 design.... why? What is the story? As long as the development makes sense for the character story, and as a DM I can build off it n create a great game with all the players.... GREAT.

That is the beginning, middle and end of my concerns on muti-classing.

Correct. It seems that many do not care about 2 at all or very little, a simple sentence of PC origin and development is enough to justify anything. That’s the point I am making
 

DMG page 97: "An Oathbreaker is a paladin who breaks his or her sacred oaths"..."the paladin replaces the features specific to his or her sacred oath with Oathbreaker features"..."you can later allow the paladin to atone and become a true paladin once more"


I.e. paladins can still fall in 5e, there are even specific rules to cover it.

Correct.

However the prevailing theory it seems is that since there is no specific rules to cover clerics or warlocks falling it simply can’t happen under any circumstances and any DM who rules that a PC has failed to uphold their faith or pact is screwing the PC and player completely over.

For a DM to suggest that such a thing could occur to a PC if the PC took such and such action would immediately be a cause for the player to leave the game for being “treated very unfairly!!”


I play with older players who get the spirit of the game and create intricate backstory to justify decisions, which is made much easier through email. I also play with my kids and their friends also ages 10-13, who just don’t think along terms of “it’s not in the rules so it’s completely allowed if it’s good for me and is impossible to happen if it’s bad for me.” They just act out their PC all the time, just saying what they are doing.

The whole point I have been trying to make is as above, have a good story and reason for why your PC is MC. The reason can’t be “I get free heavy armor proficiency for doing this, so what do I need to do to justify this.”

The post where the fighter met the deity/spirit is an example. Obviously the DM set up the meeting, I would assume it was setup by the player and DM, which is great cooperation.
 

Correct.

However the prevailing theory it seems is that since there is no specific rules to cover clerics or warlocks falling it simply can’t happen under any circumstances and any DM who rules that a PC has failed to uphold their faith or pact is screwing the PC and player completely over.

For a DM to suggest that such a thing could occur to a PC if the PC took such and such action would immediately be a cause for the player to leave the game for being “treated very unfairly!!”


I play with older players who get the spirit of the game and create intricate backstory to justify decisions, which is made much easier through email. I also play with my kids and their friends also ages 10-13, who just don’t think along terms of “it’s not in the rules so it’s completely allowed if it’s good for me and is impossible to happen if it’s bad for me.” They just act out their PC all the time, just saying what they are doing.

The whole point I have been trying to make is as above, have a good story and reason for why your PC is MC. The reason can’t be “I get free heavy armor proficiency for doing this, so what do I need to do to justify this.”

The post where the fighter met the deity/spirit is an example. Obviously the DM set up the meeting, I would assume it was setup by the player and DM, which is great cooperation.

My argument is one size does not fit all. Where this effects multiclassing I suggest looking at the specific patron, pact and shared desire to have fun. From PHB:

"Sometimes the relationship between warlock and patron is like that of a cleric and a deity, though the beings that serve as patrons for warlocks are not gods."

"More often, though, the arrangement is similar to that between a master and
an apprentice. The warlock learns and grows in power, at the cost of occasional services performed on the patron’s behalf."

No where does it suggest that powers once gained are revocable---much less
state. I don't think it is rules lawyering to argue this is very simply what some people believe or choose vs. RAW or RAI.

There is also a statement in PHB about deciding with DM about how big of a role the pact will play in the actual game.

I don't think it's just whiny kids who might not prefer or believe that a character will immediately lose previously gained ability for crossing a patron (or have a hit squad to contend with).

I prefer a world where the apprentice might rebel and maybe with help even face a patron later on. The text says a warlock completes tasks to learn and grow---I am more on board with stalling progression with a particular master than altering a warlock's previously gained abilities.

I also prefer the big tent over patrons with some less Involved or even uncaring along With those who are whimsical and others who might try to dominate more (all consistent with PHB fluff).
 
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In previous editions, paladins could fall and lose their class abilities. We know this, because the rules said so. Rules As Written.

But in 5e, such rules are conspicuous by their absence. The lack of such rules =/= these rules exist RAW, because Rules As NOT Written are not Rules AS Written.
They're only conspicuous by absence if you put them in the wrong context. If you look at the AD&D rules and compare them to the 5E rules, then you might draw the conclusion that paladins could fall in AD&D and can't fall in 5E.

But AD&D rules aren't 5E rules, and it would be wrong to take them into consideration here. Just by what it says in the PHB, about how the game works, the DM is already fully expected to role-play the gods to the best of their ability. We might reasonably disagree about whether any given action is something that a particular deity could or should do, but both perspectives are equally RAW, as long as both of our opinions are based on what it actually says in the book.

My own best guess is that they took out the specific rules for falling, because they didn't want to seem like they were encouraging that as the only option. I've heard stories of bad DMs who would contrive moral dilemmas that were nearly guaranteed to make a paladin fall, because they read those rules in the book and assumed that's the sort of thing they were supposed to do. By not explicitly calling out the possibility, it leaves the DM free to address egregious cases, but it doesn't encourage them to pull the rug out under a well-intentioned player.
And here is an assumption: the player is deliberately playing wrong! But in my experience what happens is that the player and DM disagree about the best way to role-play their devotion. In real life religious people, even of the same religion/denomination/church disagree about religious matters, and each still goes on happily being a member of that religion. But the DMs I'm talking about say it's their way or the highway, taking away the player's agency.
There are players who intentionally make a mockery of the setting, by playing to the letter of the rule rather than its underlying intent, and banking on the expectation that the DM won't call them out for it. That sort of thing happens all the time.

In my experience, jerk players are significantly more common than jerk DMs. If I have one message for anyone reading this, it's that the DM needs to stand up for themselves and their game. Don't let a player use the rules to bully you, because nobody at the table will have any fun if the DM isn't having fun.
Yet, on this forum and in real life, the knee-jerk reaction of some DMs is, "Paladin/Warlock? The player MUST be making a mockery of the story and the PC cannot possibly make sense!" Ban, ban, ban!
The DM is the only one who could possibly know with certainty what makes sense in their own world. If their immediate reaction is to assume the player is up to something with such a suggestion, then that makes sense, because it is likely to be the case most of the time. If the DM has a reason to believe that the players is well-intentioned, then they may choose to look further into the matter, and then make a decision.

It is unreasonable of a player to bring such a character to the DM with the expectation that it will be allowed. That's just pure player entitlement.
 

They're only conspicuous by absence if you put them in the wrong context. If you look at the AD&D rules and compare them to the 5E rules, then you might draw the conclusion that paladins could fall in AD&D and can't fall in 5E.

But AD&D rules aren't 5E rules, and it would be wrong to take them into consideration here. Just by what it says in the PHB, about how the game works, the DM is already fully expected to role-play the gods to the best of their ability. We might reasonably disagree about whether any given action is something that a particular deity could or should do, but both perspectives are equally RAW, as long as both of our opinions are based on what it actually says in the book.

My own best guess is that they took out the specific rules for falling, because they didn't want to seem like they were encouraging that as the only option. I've heard stories of bad DMs who would contrive moral dilemmas that were nearly guaranteed to make a paladin fall, because they read those rules in the book and assumed that's the sort of thing they were supposed to do. By not explicitly calling out the possibility, it leaves the DM free to address egregious cases, but it doesn't encourage them to pull the rug out under a well-intentioned player.
There are players who intentionally make a mockery of the setting, by playing to the letter of the rule rather than its underlying intent, and banking on the expectation that the DM won't call them out for it. That sort of thing happens all the time.

In my experience, jerk players are significantly more common than jerk DMs. If I have one message for anyone reading this, it's that the DM needs to stand up for themselves and their game. Don't let a player use the rules to bully you, because nobody at the table will have any fun if the DM isn't having fun.The DM is the only one who could possibly know with certainty what makes sense in their own world. If their immediate reaction is to assume the player is up to something with such a suggestion, then that makes sense, because it is likely to be the case most of the time. If the DM has a reason to believe that the players is well-intentioned, then they may choose to look further into the matter, and then make a decision.

It is unreasonable of a player to bring such a character to the DM with the expectation that it will be allowed. That's just pure player entitlement.

To me, this sort of thing is entirely dependent on the game system you're using as it grants you the lens to look through the world at.

With D&D players tend to look at their characters as "class first" that's not to say that there aren't people who put together great backstories and concepts, the rules as written just shoehorn you into a certain point of view.

Now lets say just as an example, you end up playing rolemaster, where it's damn near impossible to navigate the rules system until you know what story lens the GM tells you to look at the world through, then tells you to come up with your backstory and develop your character first, based on the story and then only spend on things that don't fit the story if you can afford them.

Now neither game is better than the other, and certainly one is more financially successful, but the system sort of creates the arguments you're going to have. You can certainly play either game either way if you just tell your players up front that the only time you care about "class" as a story element is at character generation.

Then the Sorlock or Lockadin doesn't matter, it just is.

KB
 

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