Arguments and assumptions against multi classing

[Arial Black]

"I would also complain about such a DM, because regardless of their interpretation of how the Oath works in their world, they failed to properly convey it to the player. It's simply unreasonable to expect a player to know what you're thinking, when given such vague rules to go by. If nothing else, the DM should tell you that the Oath demands you give 10gp, because that's something your character would know if they were a paladin who had taken that Oath. (Not that I would agree with their interpretation, mind, but they are the DM, and it's their world.)"

Tend to agree.

The issue here is not working from common baselines of understanding. The **character** should have good knowledge of where the boundaries are and the player should also have enough info yo make informed decisions.

Sometimes this seems driven by the expectation of hostility or deception on the GMs part, like the GM is waiting to catch the player and so the GM needs reigning in.

Can a GM do so, sure just like the player can exert the ultimate player agency... feet.

If the GM is gonna be a jerk, if the GM is gonna work to "get you"... no fluff text enabling entitlement credo is likely gonna be the solution.

Most players have a story about a DM playing 'gotcha' with a paladin, with fall/fall 'choices' or what-have-you. This is mine:-

I'm the only player in a 2e campaign. I'm playing 3 PCs, and the DM is playing 3 DMPCs, because that's what we always did.

One of my PCs is a paladin. I'm not one of those guys who plays them lawful/stupid, or tries to get away with as much murderhoboing as I can while claiming innocence; I really play a good guy. In fact, I generally play good guys even if I'm not playing a paladin.

So the party is in Sembia. The DM has read the info on this country, and has interpreted that info as this: if the party goes to a restaurant and because we are there some other people dine elsewhere, we get charged for their meals as well as ours. No, it doesn't make sense to me either, but I treat it as just another challenge to negotiate.

One morning one of the maids at the inn said something to my paladin about my dwarven friend's lack of manners (the dwarf was one of the DM's DMPCs), and could I do something about it? Sure, says I, I'll have a word.

Anyway, before my paladin saw the dwarf, baddies turned up and it all hit the fan. We were running and fighting and running, trying to save the (ungrateful) town. We did. Hooray for us? Not so much, the town charged us for all the damage because obviously the town wouldn't have been attacked if we weren't there!

We left town.

After a few days in-game (which was a few weeks later in real life at one session per week) my paladin started to lose his powers, one by one. Why? You don't know.

It kept happening, and the DM kept refusing to tell me why and all my guesses were wrong.

It turned out that I was losing my powers because I had broken my word.

What word? What are you talking about?

You said you would talk to the dwarf on behalf of the maid, and you never did.

I had forgotten all about it. Meaning, as a player I had forgotten, but for me weeks had passed instead of hours between request and my paladin seeing the dwarf (when the fight started and I had more important things to think about). In real life as soon as I saw the dwarf I would've been reminded that I needed to speak with him about the maid, but as a player there is no-one to see, and the thing that's taking my attention is trying to kill me.

So I said that surely my character would've remembered! After all, I didn't mention going to the toilet or shaving either but I didn't explode in a hairy mess! We have to assume that the adventure focuses on the exciting bits and lets the mundane bits happen in the background.

So, that's how my paladin lost his powers. Because his player has a bad memory.

If the DM had said, "this is what happened last week....and you also promised to speak to the dwarf about the maid", I would have done so! And if I knew about it and chose not to speak to the dwarf then, yes, that is not appropriate for a paladin and some form of admonishment (which in 2e could easily mean that his powers stopped working as they should) would be in order. But paladins fall because of bad choices, not bad memory! Even worse, it wasn't the paladin's bad memory, but his player's bad memory. And understandably given the disparity between game time and real time, and actually seeing someone reminds you that you need to talk to them.

So I get a knee-jerk reaction whenever paladin powers are taken away. Especially in 5e when that has been deliberately written out of the game! Especially when they are taken away simply because the player wants to multiclass within the rules!

 

[Sadras]

Most players have a story about a DM playing 'gotcha' with a paladin, with fall/fall 'choices' or what-have-you. This is mine:-

...(snip)...

After a few days in-game (which was a few weeks later in real life at one session per week) my paladin started to lose his powers, one by one. Why? You don't know.

So, that's how my paladin lost his powers. Because his player has a bad memory.

...(snip)...

So I get a knee-jerk reaction whenever paladin powers are taken away. Especially in 5e when that has been deliberately written out of the game! Especially when they are taken away simply because the player wants to multiclass within the rules!

Okay but let us be serious now...that was a terrible call by the DM and even more importantly HOW OLD WERE YOU AND THE DM?

People keep bashing on the 1e-2e character powers being stripped, but the majority of these stories exist when we were teenagers and the college years. To use that excuse now for roleplayers in their 30's, 40's and 50's just doesn't fly anymore IMO.

Furthermore the typical DM 'gotcha' mentality does not only exist for alignment and character power stripping but for whatever the PC does or doesn't specifically say and it is pretty much frowned upon to vehemently opposed, at least from what I have seen on Enworld and my own table (which is the only available data I have).

 

[Arial Black]

Okay but let us be serious now...that was a terrible call by the DM and even more importantly HOW OLD WERE YOU AND THE DM?

Let's see...it was towards the back end of 2e, after we had finished Dragon Mountain...

So I was maybe 35 and the DM was two years older.

 

[Sadras]

Let's see...it was towards the back end of 2e, after we had finished Dragon Mountain...

So I was maybe 35 and the DM was two years older.

Good grief man, if I had tried anything like that I'd have the players revolt at my table whether it was in the book or not.

There are plenty other ways to strip powers besides oath-breaking.

Dead zones/worlds, where magic does not work.
Teleporting to a new cosmos, where one's deity has limited or zero access to. i.e. loss of divine powers.
Patron being killed/captured, perhaps resulting in a loss of Warlock powers/progression, depending on how the use of the powers are relayed/learned...etc

Even under all these occurrences including oathbreaking (not the gotcha type example you highlighted), there would be a conversation at the table between the DM and PCs to discuss the possible length of power loss, mitigating power loss, method of reclaiming lost power/ability, playing a NPC in the meantime, pros and cons of new mechanic introduced.

This is not an example of stripping of class powers but an effect that was introduced into our game when our group found themselves in FR (accidental teleport from Mystara) besides the fact that almost all their spells slots were used for Comprehend Languages and Tongues (which had become the most important spell), the cleric found that his connection to his Immortal felt distant. It took him twice as long to commune/pray in order to access his spell allotment every day, his spell DC's were one lower, while he earned a +1 bonus on saving against native divine magic.
Our Wild Mage on the other found out early on that due to this world's large latent magical energies there was an increased chance of causing a wild magic surge (additional 5%).
In this instance I didn't strip their powers but introduced/adjusted mechanics.

 

[GreyLord]

After a few days in-game (which was a few weeks later in real life at one session per week) my paladin started to lose his powers, one by one. Why? You don't know.

It kept happening, and the DM kept refusing to tell me why and all my guesses were wrong.

It turned out that I was losing my powers because I had broken my word.

What word? What are you talking about?

You said you would talk to the dwarf on behalf of the maid, and you never did.

I had forgotten all about it. Meaning, as a player I had forgotten, but for me weeks had passed instead of hours between request and my paladin seeing the dwarf (when the fight started and I had more important things to think about). In real life as soon as I saw the dwarf I would've been reminded that I needed to speak with him about the maid, but as a player there is no-one to see, and the thing that's taking my attention is trying to kill me.

So I said that surely my character would've remembered! After all, I didn't mention going to the toilet or shaving either but I didn't explode in a hairy mess! We have to assume that the adventure focuses on the exciting bits and lets the mundane bits happen in the background.

So, that's how my paladin lost his powers. Because his player has a bad memory.

If the DM had said, "this is what happened last week....and you also promised to speak to the dwarf about the maid", I would have done so! And if I knew about it and chose not to speak to the dwarf then, yes, that is not appropriate for a paladin and some form of admonishment (which in 2e could easily mean that his powers stopped working as they should) would be in order. But paladins fall because of bad choices, not bad memory! Even worse, it wasn't the paladin's bad memory, but his player's bad memory. And understandably given the disparity between game time and real time, and actually seeing someone reminds you that you need to talk to them.

So I get a knee-jerk reaction whenever paladin powers are taken away. Especially in 5e when that has been deliberately written out of the game! Especially when they are taken away simply because the player wants to multiclass within the rules!

Well, if I was the DM's only player I'd say...see ya! If you want to be a jerk you can play on your own from now on. If you want to be a reasonable person that can play well with others and WANT someone to play D&D with...hows about you start changing your tune and get real and stop being a jerk to your ONLY player.

When he complains just tell him...Paladin codes are less restrictive then the DM's code...which is basically don't be a jerk and don't treat your players like trash. He broke the code, thus unless he atones for it, he's going to lose his powers to be a DM over ANY players period.

Seriously, that was a jerk move on that DM's part.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Well, I have to admit that I have never heard of anything like that, despite playing 1e with many different groups between 1978 and when 2e came out.

Did 2e have the same or similar rule?

Don't feel badly about not hearing of it. Not reading core rules fully, discarding things that folks thought were too fiddly or just missing something whole cloth due to bad organization were just as prevalent back then as they are now. The rule is a two paragraph section at the top of a left hand column of a page in the DMG.

As far as 2e goes, the punishment/reward system wasn't as defined. Certainly you could build something similar with the "Fun" rules on page 45 of the DMG and the individual bonus reward optional rules on page 48. I think that by the time 2e rolled around the experience mechanics were more focused on group and story awards, though the primary methodology for experience earning was the same.

Personal opinion is that 2e did a better job of putting "most" of the rules that affect each other in the same places in books so you don't miss things. What they didn't do was enlighten folks on what was changed or removed from the game. Many people think "oh 2e is just 1e cleaned up".. and while true in many places it's not entirely accurate.

Thanks
KB

 

[Warpiglet]

Don't feel badly about not hearing of it. Not reading core rules fully, discarding things that folks thought were too fiddly or just missing something whole cloth due to bad organization were just as prevalent back then as they are now. The rule is a two paragraph section at the top of a left hand column of a page in the DMG.

As far as 2e goes, the punishment/reward system wasn't as defined. Certainly you could build something similar with the "Fun" rules on page 45 of the DMG and the individual bonus reward optional rules on page 48. I think that by the time 2e rolled around the experience mechanics were more focused on group and story awards, though the primary methodology for experience earning was the same.

Personal opinion is that 2e did a better job of putting "most" of the rules that affect each other in the same places in books so you don't miss things. What they didn't do was enlighten folks on what was changed or removed from the game. Many people think "oh 2e is just 1e cleaned up".. and while true in many places it's not entirely accurate.

Thanks
KB

We loved and exclusively played AD&D 1e through the early 2000s! Skipped 2e. That said, many of us in grad school or technical vocations read very well. And we skipped over a TON in 1e. I always would find another nugget not used each time I read the book whether it was armor class vs. weapon tables or the experience rating system.

We often paid for training but sometimes we were in the wilds and the DM said nope!

 

[lowkey13]

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[Kobold Boots]

Just as prevalent? How about much more prevalent?

I can't speak for everyone, but my experience playing 1e (of which I have far too much) is that tables picked and choose what rules they were using, although there was a "gestalt" of core 1e rules that the majority of tables followed, and it was (in certain, nerdier corners at least) a mark of esteem when you could recite weird Gygaxian rules buried in the PHB or DMG that people weren't generally aware of- not that the table would follow the rule, just that you knew it.

My experiences jive with yours.

In my case, I was the youngest person in my original group of players and looking at where we all ended up, the most driven and opinionated. So as we embarked on our nerdy corner the only way I could avoid being taken advantage of by the DM (and later on, players) was to know the PHB and DMG well enough to be "that guy" and back it up on the fly.

Actually super helpful for later life, because it wired me for detail driven professions and public speaking. Of course, doing that put me behind the 8 ball on social skills. While I'm now comfortably in the "normal" range; I had to learn etiquette programmatically, and not experientially for it to stick.

So I guess my idiot savant skill is rules frameworks of any kind. (D&D, Cyber GRC, Coding languages, Academic programs etc.)

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*