Arguments and assumptions against multi classing

Erechel

Explorer
The damage numbers do seem off, remember RAW you can’t give yourself advantage anymore with Shield Master, it’s been changed.
There is no book that I remember that changed that rule whatsoever. We play with every official book, and that hasn't come up a single time. We don't tend to use a lot of Sage Advice.

But also, all you are doing is damage, and proning people for others to get advantage. As a fighter, that is your job though, so you need to put out a lot.
You also need to be in their making yourself a target, you have a deeper HP pool with armor and better HD.

Your monk exceeds your “effective” damage, as stunning a creature ups damage tremendously and saves the group from any damage that creature would do. Don’t forget that, and work together with that knowledge.

You are limited of course to proning one size larger, what makes open hand monks so awesome is they can prone or shove any size creature.

He is an Elemental monk. But yes, he is amazing. We tend to be on par, although I have a lot more resistance. We tend to move a lot, though. But remember that maneuvers aren't damage only. I use Lunging Attack, Precision Strike and, mostly, Menacing Attack, that frightens my foe if it doesn't succeed on a DC 15 WST. That maneuver is simply amazing.

Playing a SM Paladin now, I still use the old rule myself though. SM is quite good, but subtle, it’s better for Paladins since advantage means double the chance to land a doubled smite. Prones are great with Spirit Guardians, so I took Crown Oath, or multi-attackers like a monk.

The other benefits of SM are good though.
Remember that Battlemasters also double the SD with a crit, and also you decide when to use your resources. it is not unusual that I end making 2d12+2d8+6 damage.

I also can’t bring a steed into a lot of places, especially when you get the better ones. Flying into town on a Pegasus just screams for attention, either good or bad.
I'm not flying with my mount. In fact, that's why I'm complaining. If the Bardlock would be a Warlock or Bard, I could be flying on horseback :lol:. And yes, there are places where my horse can't be used effectively. But, if a troll enters in a dungeon, a horse too. And yes, the horses tend to die a lot. That's why I have 4 horses and one of my (many) skills is Animal Handling, and I'm trying to forge a barding (until now, I have only strapped 3 small shields on the horses). But remember that a lance has reach. Many people forget how useful a lance is. And a warhorse has 60 feet of movement, and can only take the Dash, Disengage and Dodge actions. With a lance, I never enter in a position where my horse receives an opportunity attack, and retire hastily.

If the enemy isn't prone (disadvantage on its attacks) or dead, it has to take the Dash action only to come at 10 feet of me.

And yes, we fight as a group (I'm the combat leader of the party), but the bardlock mostly falls behind us. He usually Hex my enemies so I have advantage on the Athletics checks.

As a side note, I'm eager to use my tinker and smith tools to create a flamethrower with alchemic fire (the byzantines had flamethrowers, after all). Overall, I'm a money sink, but very effective. :D

Think of my character as a Mount&Blade chevallier. mount_and_bladem.jpg
 
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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
There was a 1e Dragon article that introduced paladins of every alignment as NPCs. It was called A Plethora of Paladins.
Remind me to get that article printed, framed, and then sent to [MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION]. :)
 

5ekyu

Hero
I get what you are saying but most only the integer not what it represents.

A properly played PC would make the difference clear. Remember stats are supposed to be a bell curve, with an 18 about 3-4 standard deviations from the norm, maybe more, a real outlier. Goes the other way also.

A PC with 8 Str is noticeably weak compared to a 10 Str pc, obviously weaker than a 14 STR pc. An 8 WIS pc vs a 12 WIS pc, properly played, would show the difference in almost every session. A friend played a 5 Dex Paladin once, a unique clumsy experience was had. Luckily he had a high enough wisdom to realize that he was clumsy and avoid some trouble that could cause.

Greyhawk essentially had a “Forrest Gump” type NPC, a Paladin (Artur Jakarti) with maximum possible STR, 17 WIS and CHR but 5 Int. Great fun to interact with, as he could feel what was the right thing to do but not actually express it. Hard to DM though, as he was in a position of significance.

Another example, if you are the Bard in the group with your high CHR and you are the party face as DM I would turn to you first in almost every social encounter and not allow others to speak up right away. You better be ready to be the party face. If the party had Rary telepathic bond up then I would let others jump in from the get go, that’s a good gaming.


I really suggest in addition to trying MC try to play a PC with a handicap in some way.


I try to not get too involved in telling others how to "properly play their PC" or whether or not an 8 in their world is "noticably weak" or "commoner average" compared to a 10 being "normal" or "adventurewr normal" since i have seen a lot of games systems over the years run that differently for different paradigms.

i also try and avoid telling people that strength *should* be seen on some bell curve exponential vs a linear especially when the modifiers are strictly linear and the Dcs often seem to be too. hard to say "you are bell curve weak" when the weight you carry, the difficulty of the climb and the distance you jump is linearly mapped to those scores.

As for the Gm deciding who can and cannot speak up in character... well i guess that fits some groups. I tend to prefer to let the players and their characters choose when they *can* speak and focus more on my end on the NPCs and their actions and reactions.

For instance, maybe the CHA 8 half-orc simply dives right in, cutting off the GM-designated bard/face and starts an amazingly bad blunderous attempt at small talk destined to piss people off but very much in keeping with his 8 cha "rush in before thinking thru" nature.

To me me telling him"sorry, you are not allowed to talk yet by Gm ruling the bard is the one to go first. Wait until i tell you your character can do stuff."

But again, to each his own.

There are certainly, absolutely, wonderfully great things a player can do and maybe enjoy with a lower than 10 or lower than bonus stat on a character. i think its darn tootin' shucks darn wonderful when those stats and those players who like them are put together and blow the doors off that role playing stuff.

Like i said, they enjoy it, they roleplay it that way, its fun - great for them.

But i am pretty sure they could also roleplay the doors off a guy with a bonus stat too.

there is nothing magical to roleplaying about a negative bonus stat. its just another element you can work with.

But players do not have to be forced into it in order to roleplay and not doing it doesn't force them to not rolweplay or deny them the chance to roleplay and all that jazz.

I just think its not wise at all to jump to assumptions about someone's roleplaying based on whether they are now playing a MC character or a single class character or a character with high stats or a character with low stats etc etc etc and just judge their roleplaying on its own - if one really truly needs to scratch an itch to be a "judge" over someone else's roleplaying and fun.

To me, each player comes to the table with their own preferences - and where i can as Gm i scratch their itches as much as possible within the game. if that means Bob focuses more on running a pretty vanilla stoic dwarf who doesn't get into so much all that drama and roleplay (but Bob really likes character design and gameplay and combat/non-combat challenges.), Barry plays a rogue trickster with a nose for heists and puzzles and contacts and networking his own business (economy building) and Jim plays a halfling sorceress entertainer/mystic who really does a lot of the roleplaying things - I really see myself better able to Gm if i do not judge which of them is being run "properly" and instead focus on meshing together those interests within the games and events of the world they are in.

I can even let them decide who gets to talk first without me allowing it.
 

ScuroNotte

Explorer
What if there is a dispute at the table about what is breaking and/or ruining the game, then someone at the table is obviously not having fun, right?

Disagreements and frustration can happen even when its actually part of the game as intended and written. Nothing is perfect. Much is talked about prior to game and we then see how it plays out.

Like anything, if a person is already pessimistic, then problems will arise regardless.
 

Satyrn

First Post
Giving it a bit more thought, while they didn't hard code lawful or lawful good as restrictions, the oaths themselves sort of soft code those restrictions in. The Oath of Devotion is the quintessential LG paladin of 1e-3e. In fact, the idea that there are oaths that have a series of tenets which you must adhere to is fairly lawful in its own right. The Oath of the Ancients is all about mercy, love, kindness and standing against wickedness. That's fairly clearly good, so I suppose NG, LG and CG are all options, except for the highly lawful part of adhering to an oath. The Oath of Vengeance has the greatest variety of alignment possibilities. It's pretty unlikely to be an oath a good person undertakes, but neutral or evil are options. Again, though, the oath part would seem to make lawful most likely.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the 5e PHB paladins.
Makes sense. Indeed, I had been wondering if it was the implied lawfulness of an oath that had led you to say paladins had to be lawful in 5e.

And certainly, if 5e had imposed alignment restrictions on classes there's no way paladins would have avoided Lawful handcuffs.
 

Greg K

Legend
Irrelevant. That wasn't my claim. My claim was that 1e had NPC paladins of alignments other than LG.

Some people may have had non-LG NPC paladins (or even PC paladins) games in their 1e games, but they never had it officially as the content of the article were not official rules!
 

Satyrn

First Post
Menacing Attack, that frightens my foe if it doesn't succeed on a DC 15 WST. That maneuver is simply amazing.
My 3rd level battlemaster felt like Gandalf when I used Menacing Attack against a balrog. "Thou shall not pass!"

Or even approach.



(It was actually an ogre. But still! Awesome.)
 

Greg K

Legend
Actually if we are talking about rules in the game, it is very relevant. Only LG paladins were included in the rules even after UA codified optional rules from Dragon.

The eventual outcome was decided in Unearthed Arcana---when paladins became cavaliers and other alignments could become non-paladin cavaliers. You can make up and use whatever fluff and optional rules you wish which is consistent with my OP: making your own fluff and using optional fluff should not be frowned upon necessarily.

Just to add to the above, when talking about Dragon Magazine during 1e, little of that material was ever under consideration to become official let alone being official. Yes, some stuff became official such as Roger Moore's non-human deity articles or Ed Greenwood's material for the Realms, but this was rare outside of Gygax's work. And even Gary's own work in Dragon, according to him, was not to be considered official until it appeared in an official AD&D supplement 1e unless specified otherwise (not that the people with whom I played or even I always remembered this when it came to his Dragon material)..
 


Satyrn

First Post
Again, I am sure that there were some tables, somewhere, playing "by the rules" but I'd be hard pressed to remember them. :)
Those poor tables playing 1e "by the rules." Seems like that'd be the sort of ironic punishment handed out to 3e rules lawyers in Hell.
 

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