Armor and Extended Rest

There are no explicit rules for it in 4e. I would just make a house rule saying if you sleep in your armor, make an Endurance check or wake up with one less healing surge.

Yeah, that's plenty. Personally I'd only require an Endurance check if you don't have proficiency in the relevant armour. IRL people have no trouble sleeping in armour if they're tired enough!

I think if PCs only *ever* slept in armour and never took it off then I'd start requiring Endurance checks for chafing, infection etc, with healing surge loss and/or Disease if fail. But that would be for long-term play (at least a week), not one night in the woods.

The pre-4e idea that warriors in hostile terrain would strip off their armour before going to bed always seemed pretty silly to me, ever since I did a few overnight army battlefield exercises (in the field in simulated combat conditions from roughly 5am Saturday to 2pm Sunday). You really see it differently when you do it for 'real'... :)
 

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Assume that the rules already take into account the cost of sleeping in armour. Instead of penalizing them for wearing it, reward them if they opt not to.

Grant them extra healing surges (or some other bonus), for having had a more comfortable rest. Then they have the option of continuing to wear their armour, and having the AC and healing surges the rules assume they do, or of risking danger in the night in favour for advantage the next day.

That seems like a very nice idea! How about temp hit points at the start of the new day after a nice armourless rest at the inn? Maybe 1 per point of base AC on your highest armour proficiency. I'm not sure I like the extra book-keeping though.

Edit: Maybe it takes several days' rest & recuperation to gain the temps?
 

I like the concept of having an Endurance check with difficulty based on the type of armor. Even Leather armor is uncomfortable. If you make the roll, you are ok. If you miss by 5, -1 healing surge. If you miss by 10, -2 healing surges, etc.

This does two things:

1) It gets most of the PCs out of the armor in safe areas which allows for the once in a blue moon combat without the PC's armor on.

2) It gets more PCs thinking about purchasing Endurance. Endurance, in my experience, is not used enough. PCs go into hazardous areas all over the place and are totally ok for the most part. I try to throw in some environmental dangers, poisons, and diseases once in a while, but I've played under DMs that almost never do that.
 

I think the best way to handle it, if you want to handle it at all, is to come at it from the opposite direction.

Assume that the rules already take into account the cost of sleeping in armour. Instead of penalizing them for wearing it, reward them if they opt not to.

Grant them extra healing surges (or some other bonus), for having had a more comfortable rest. Then they have the option of continuing to wear their armour, and having the AC and healing surges the rules assume they do, or of risking danger in the night in favour for advantage the next day.


I loved your plan so much I came up with the following for my group:

'Ale, Whores & Midnight Assassinations' suggested house rule:

If a PC spends at least 50gp (lavish) on upkeep/carousing over a week of R&R while not wearing any armour except Cloth, they can have temporary hit points equal to 2+the base AC of the armour in which they have highest proficiency, at the start of their next adventuring day.

If a PC spends at least 10gp (comfortable) on upkeep/carousing over a week of R&R while not wearing any armour except Cloth, they can have temporary hit points equal to the base AC of the armour in which they have highest proficiency, at the start of their next adventuring day.

Note the 'no armour' requirement - I don't do a lot of arbitrary bushwhacking, but if you choose to take advantage of this rule and you are attacked in town while armourless then don't complain. [>:)]

The temps last until the PCs' first adventuring 'short rest', as usual.
 

It seems to me that the reason the rules don't include a penalty is that such a penalty is neither fun nor balanced. It may be realistic (though I have seen claims by some that one can, in fact, sleep comfortably in armour), but that doesn't balance the equation....


...I think the best way to handle it, if you want to handle it at all, is to come at it from the opposite direction.

Assume that the rules already take into account the cost of sleeping in armour. Instead of penalizing them for wearing it, reward them if they opt not to.

My group had rules that gave penalties for sleeping in armor and often we were ambushed at night. The paladin never died but the paladin's player definitely found it frustrating to go into battle unprepared (without armor or a shield), especially since other characters like my Rogue never had to worry about that.

I love the rewarding for self-penalizing suggestion. That's a brilliant alternative perspective to take. Unfortunately I can't XP you right now. Can anyone cover for me??
 

For those still bent on screwing the paladin and others in armor, what are you doing to balance the equation by screwing over the unarmored PCs? If the answer is nothing (which I surmise it is based on responses here), then it's not that you're being a RB, you're just being a B and a bad (unfair) DM. Why do I say this? Because the armor in the first place is an equalizer, so by taking it away arbitrarily and capriciously, you're only making things unequal and unfair.
 

I'm definitely going to have to talk with our GM on this one. We so far played one 5 hour session, and both of the combats took place at night. Given that statistically the "random" encounters (which both fell on the Leader's watch) only happen at night, then the armor rule of not sleeping in it (which is most definitely a house rule) is punishing characters for building heavily armored characters, with no perceived benefit.
 

For those still bent on screwing the paladin and others in armor, what are you doing to balance the equation by screwing over the unarmored PCs? If the answer is nothing (which I surmise it is based on responses here), then it's not that you're being a RB, you're just being a B and a bad (unfair) DM. Why do I say this? Because the armor in the first place is an equalizer, so by taking it away arbitrarily and capriciously, you're only making things unequal and unfair.

Pretty much... The time one of my DM's didn't let my STR/CON Fighter sleep in heavy armor, we got ambushed. I had to blow my turn using a Standard to put on my shield just to get above an 11 AC! Even then, I was still 6 or so points of AC below the lowest party member (Our Staff Wizard with magic Leather armor), which meant I couldn't mark anything (since then it would get even worse) and basically just cowered in the back.

All rules like this do is punish the heavy AC users, with nothing to balance it out. We already get check and speed penalties, can't hold items in the off-hand (if using a Heavy Shield), and light armor users can still usually match or better our AC without too much trouble. And then you're going to add yet another penalty on top of that???

It's enough to basically invalidate certain class choices, like Paladin. At least with a Fighter you can go high DEX and use Hide armor, but with a Pally you'd be gimping the class by tossing an 18 into DEX. It also practically invalidates certain racial/class combinations, like the iconic Dwarf Fighter, or Dragonborn. Also, good luck getting a Warlord, Ardent or Battle Cleric. They already have much lower AC than other frontline combatants, and now there's a risk that they could be completely in the basement? The only real potential solution past the early levels is for every heavy armor user to use Summoned Armor, which basically means carrying around two suits of magic armor, or just never getting to use any of the neat magical heavy armors.

And all of this in a vain attempt to bring vermisilitude, when many people who have actually worn the armor have said that there's no problems when you sleep in it? This is one holdover from 3e that I can't wait to see go away.

(Oh, and I'm speaking from experience when I say that these rules tend to invalidate certain class choices or race/class combinations. When that same DM ran a one-off just to break things up, most of us just created Paragon versions of our characters to see what they would be like in 10 levels. Not me. I turned in my Dragonborn STR/CON Fighter in Scale for an Eladrin Spear Fighter with high DEX and Hide armor. I wasn't about to let that happen again...)
 

All rules like this do is punish the heavy AC users, with nothing to balance it out. We already get check and speed penalties, can't hold items in the off-hand (if using a Heavy Shield), and light armor users can still usually match or better our AC without too much trouble. And then you're going to add yet another penalty on top of that???

It depends on how you implement the rule. An auto-hit on a healing surge, sure, I agree with you.

But, if the rule is:

Make an Endurance check = 10 + 1/2 level + core AC bonus (2 for leather, 8 for plate). If you make it, you're fine. If you miss by 5, you lose one healing surge. If you miss by 10, you lose two healing surges, etc. Endurance trained PCs often make the check. Others, not always. Plus it affects all armors Leather or higher.

This incentivizes players of most armors to train Endurance or CON. I find it amazing that PCs are walking around the world with 10 CONS and nothing bad ever happens to them shy of in combat. City slicker Wizards who never catch a cold in the wilderness. It's not a matter of making the game super realistic, it's a matter of creating a believable world while not penalizing one group of players too much over another. Sure, the Wizard in Cloth avoids this, but then again, he's is Cloth. Shy of taking a feat, taking a specific class feature, and/or a starting Int of 20, he typically has the lowest AC in the entire party, often 4 to 6 less than the heavily armored PCs. Plus, it incentivizes a Wizard player to take Unarmored Agility instead of Leather Armor (which might play into a given DM's worldview of how some classes should be).

It can also incentivize players to come up with different solutions like the Secure Shelter ritual when camping out.

By the way, you don't think that Wizard and Cleric and other PCs aren't penalized huge for AC before they even step out of the door? You talk a lot about how the heavy AC users are penalized, but I think that there are a lot of lightly armored penalized PCs. AC is often a much more important game element than Climbing or Stealth. Not always, but often.

From my perspective, many of the heavy AC PCs get a lot of advantages over the lightly armored ones and it's not just AC. Hit points, healing surge value, number of healing surges, AND the heavily armored PCs still can often do magical sounding things like shifting multiple squares across the battlefield, or teleporting, or auto-damaging foes. One of the least balancing aspects of 4E is that the heavily armored PCs can sometimes do many of the magical sounding things that the lightly armored PCs can do, but they still get better AC and hit points and healing surges out of the deal.

Heavily armored PCs also do not have to bump up Int or Dex every single time, even if it is not their primary ability score. That's a real significant advantage.


I had a player complain when her PC was climbing down a rope and immediately got into combat, and I told her that she didn't have her weapon out or her heavy shield prepped. To me, there are a wide variety of encounters in town where the PCs are not heavily armed and armored that cannot be played if the DM and players do not have a world view that, well, you are not wearing your 60 pound armor 24/7. You have to take a bath sometime. Sorry, but you cannot climb a wall with a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other, etc. As a DM, I enjoy having encounters that are not just "go to dungeon, kill monster, win". House rules like these can open up a lot of possibilities that don't often happen in games that play inside the box of the core rules only by incentivizing players to actually roleplay the PC as if it really was a person with 60 pounds of armor on his back.
 

I like the penalize if a failed endurance check thing, but... Rules like this I think require more then just this part of the rule.

I think this is the kind of rule that would depend on random encounters and if PCs have any way of mitigating the threat, otherwise it feels like a DM ambush.

"Haha I forced you to not wear armor then forced a fight on you."

PCs should also be allowed to do things like taking extra time to conceal their camp from potential enemies, or create a defensive perimeter that could hold off the actual encounter for enough time for the PC to get his/her armor on.

I'm seeing a skill challenge type scenario.
 

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