Armor and Extended Rest

I have a hard time buying an explanation of verisimilitude when the house-rule gets tougher as the PC gets more experienced. Also, there are disease rules and no one's stopping people from adding the Common Cold if that's the type of game they enjoy. I don't see the argument holding any water.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

It depends on how you implement the rule. An auto-hit on a healing surge, sure, I agree with you.

But, if the rule is:

Make an Endurance check = 10 + 1/2 level + core AC bonus (2 for leather, 8 for plate). If you make it, you're fine. If you miss by 5, you lose one healing surge. If you miss by 10, you lose two healing surges, etc. Endurance trained PCs often make the check. Others, not always. Plus it affects all armors Leather or higher.

This incentivizes players of most armors to train Endurance or CON. I find it amazing that PCs are walking around the world with 10 CONS and nothing bad ever happens to them shy of in combat. City slicker Wizards who never catch a cold in the wilderness. It's not a matter of making the game super realistic, it's a matter of creating a believable world while not penalizing one group of players too much over another. Sure, the Wizard in Cloth avoids this, but then again, he's is Cloth. Shy of taking a feat, taking a specific class feature, and/or a starting Int of 20, he typically has the lowest AC in the entire party, often 4 to 6 less than the heavily armored PCs. Plus, it incentivizes a Wizard player to take Unarmored Agility instead of Leather Armor (which might play into a given DM's worldview of how some classes should be).

It can also incentivize players to come up with different solutions like the Secure Shelter ritual when camping out.

While I still don't entirely agree that such a rule is necessary, I think that your version is at least a bit more balanced. Although it reads a bit like a feat tax. Take the STR/WIS Fighter, for example. He can train in Endurance, but due to the split between STR and WIS, he won't have a very high CON to buff it. This means that, at best, if he takes training in Endurance he'll only be at a -2 in Scale (possibly only a -1 or a 0 if he has a 12 or 14 starting CON). So really, you're basically making characters like that save against losing a surge, sometimes with up to a -2 modifier (or worse).

As a DM, there are other ways to encourage using CON or Endurance. Why not introduce some diseases into the campaign? Or play a Dark Sun game...then Endurance becomes really important!

By the way, you don't think that Wizard and Cleric and other PCs aren't penalized huge for AC before they even step out of the door? You talk a lot about how the heavy AC users are penalized, but I think that there are a lot of lightly armored penalized PCs. AC is often a much more important game element than Climbing or Stealth. Not always, but often.

From my perspective, many of the heavy AC PCs get a lot of advantages over the lightly armored ones and it's not just AC. Hit points, healing surge value, number of healing surges, AND the heavily armored PCs still can often do magical sounding things like shifting multiple squares across the battlefield, or teleporting, or auto-damaging foes. One of the least balancing aspects of 4E is that the heavily armored PCs can sometimes do many of the magical sounding things that the lightly armored PCs can do, but they still get better AC and hit points and healing surges out of the deal.

Here you're confusing class and equipment. Every one of those powers can pretty much be done with a light armor character. Name any Fighter power, for example, and I can build a STR/DEX Fighter that can use it, while using light armor. Many of those powers are present on traditionally light armored classes as well. Shifting multiple squares? Hello Ranger, Rogue, Wizard (expeditious retreat!), etc... Teleporting? Well the Swordmage, who is a Defender, does a ton of that while wearing light armor thanks to his high INT. So does the Warlock, who also tends to wear light armor (although they can use chain, but will usually be at a lower AC than if they did a CHA/INT build in Hide).

Heavily armored PCs also do not have to bump up Int or Dex every single time, even if it is not their primary ability score. That's a real significant advantage.

As opposed to the Rogue or Ranger? Oh wait, they have DEX as a primary. Oh, well maybe the Wiz...oh wait, he uses INT. Well, maybe a melee Ranger then, they use STR as a primary, right? Oh, but then they use DEX as a big secondary for their riders... ;)

Sarcasm aside, most of the classes that don't get heavy armor out of the box typically use INT or DEX as at least their big Secondary stat. When they don't, they often have a way to compensate, like Dragon Magic Sorcerers (they add STR to their AC when in light armor) and Earthstrength Wardens (they add CON to their AC when in light armor). Either that, or they can very easily qualify for Chain, since you can jump up to that from Leather provided you have the right stats (which, usually you will if you don't have DEX as either a primary or a secondary).

Can you name a specific class for which this is a problem? Namely, one that does not use DEX or INT as a Primary or Secondary stat, and that also does not get proficiency in Chain? That's not a baiting or sarcastic request, I just can't think of one off the top of my head, so perhaps if we had a more specific example then we could discuss this particular problem better. If there are such classes, then yes, I would agree that they're getting the shaft.

I had a player complain when her PC was climbing down a rope and immediately got into combat, and I told her that she didn't have her weapon out or her heavy shield prepped.

Well, for one, you probably should have told your PC that she was going to have to stow those items before she attempted the climb so she wouldn't be surprised. Secondly, the Athletics skill doesn't actually say that you need both hands free in order to climb. Obviously you would need at least one, but since it never specifies both this might mean that your PC could've kept her shield on, and only needed to draw a weapon. That's a more iffy issue though, and would apply to the twin blade Ranger as well as any number of light armor classes.

To me, there are a wide variety of encounters in town where the PCs are not heavily armed and armored that cannot be played if the DM and players do not have a world view that, well, you are not wearing your 60 pound armor 24/7. You have to take a bath sometime. Sorry, but you cannot climb a wall with a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other, etc. As a DM, I enjoy having encounters that are not just "go to dungeon, kill monster, win". House rules like these can open up a lot of possibilities that don't often happen in games that play inside the box of the core rules only by incentivizing players to actually roleplay the PC as if it really was a person with 60 pounds of armor on his back.

I can understand what you're going for, but I think adding in additional penalties doesn't really accomplish that goal very well. The Leather wearing guy with high CON and Endurance training (Earthstrength Warden springs to mind) will just about auto-pass your check, which means that there's no incentive to ever remove his armor. If you make the penalty worse, then it just makes it worse for everyone, while still being only a minor hinderance to the Warden (who, BTW, will probably have the highest HP and Surges of the party, and won't really mind losing one).

I just think that there are better ways to encourage this sort of play, besides adding some 3e holdover that was eliminated for a reason. Either that, or just simply ignore it. Maybe the Fighter wants to wear his highly polished Black Dragonscale armor to meet the King? Perhaps to remind him of when they defeated the Black Dragon plaguing his lands? The RP opportunities cut both ways, and there's a long history of heavy armor being an important status symbol and prized possession of knights...something they would've wanted to show off, not lock up in a chest every time they were in town.
 

Can you name a specific class for which this is a problem? Namely, one that does not use DEX or INT as a Primary or Secondary stat, and that also does not get proficiency in Chain?

Barbarian? Oh yeah, feat tax. Warlock?

You consider profiency at Chain being proficient to melee fight in an encounter? The bottom line is that one type of PC requires an ability score or gets crappy AC, and another type of PC does not. Yes there are often options, but they are not always good ones, or they are costly ones.

Well, for one, you probably should have told your PC that she was going to have to stow those items before she attempted the climb so she wouldn't be surprised. Secondly, the Athletics skill doesn't actually say that you need both hands free in order to climb. Obviously you would need at least one, but since it never specifies both this might mean that your PC could've kept her shield on, and only needed to draw a weapon. That's a more iffy issue though, and would apply to the twin blade Ranger as well as any number of light armor classes.

Do you need both legs to walk?

To me, it's common sense that one needs both arms to climb, even if someone is using their legs. Using one arm might be possible, but I'm upping the climb DC as a DM. Ditto for Swimming.

There are players (and DMs) that "in the name of RAW", throw common sense out with the bathwater. And actually, this wasn't the first time that this type of thing has occurred. The player had seen it multiple times in the past, she just zoned and then was annoyed when I played the game consistently as I had in the past.

To me, this is no different than the DM adjudicating any other skill DC. Do what makes sense.

Similar to: the PCs are in a tavern. A fight breaks out. No, the Fighter doesn't have his shield strapped to his arm or his weapon out unless he told the DM ahead of time that it happened. And, PCs aren't wearing their backpacks at the table either. The backpacks are there, but they are leaning against the table or a chair and if the PCs rush out of the room, I'll remind them that they were not getting a drink with a 40 pound backpack on their backs. Verisimilitude should occur at least some of the time.

I can understand what you're going for, but I think adding in additional penalties doesn't really accomplish that goal very well. The Leather wearing guy with high CON and Endurance training (Earthstrength Warden springs to mind) will just about auto-pass your check, which means that there's no incentive to ever remove his armor. If you make the penalty worse, then it just makes it worse for everyone, while still being only a minor hinderance to the Warden (who, BTW, will probably have the highest HP and Surges of the party, and won't really mind losing one).

And Thieves often make their Stealth rolls while other PCs are spotted. Your point? Pros and Cons. Some PCs are good at something, others are not.

I just think that there are better ways to encourage this sort of play, besides adding some 3e holdover that was eliminated for a reason.

I don't buy into the argument that WotC is omnipotent and their ideas of what can make a game fun necessarily must be whatever is designed into the game.

Either that, or just simply ignore it. Maybe the Fighter wants to wear his highly polished Black Dragonscale armor to meet the King? Perhaps to remind him of when they defeated the Black Dragon plaguing his lands? The RP opportunities cut both ways, and there's a long history of heavy armor being an important status symbol and prized possession of knights...something they would've wanted to show off, not lock up in a chest every time they were in town.

No doubt. I have no problem with that. I just want the players to roleplay, not rollplay. Wearing armor every second of the day is rollplaying.
 

I have a hard time buying an explanation of verisimilitude when the house-rule gets tougher as the PC gets more experienced.

50 pounds of hard, strong, and heavy armor is just as uncomfortable and hot at 30th level as 1st. This isn't much different than drowning. Yeah, the 30th level PC can last 3 rounds more in combat under water, but he can still drown pretty darn fast and easily. I don't see much of a verisimilitude issue here, you're just making the claim that the PC should after a few levels be great at sleeping in armor and I don't happen to see that as making sense. It's not that the skill is getting tougher (that's a side effect of how D&D skills work), it's that the PC isn't getting relatively better at doing the skill (shy of magic, feats, or ability boosts). His odds tend to stay the same unless he does something about it.

PCs shouldn't always get better at all things and the skill system often reflects that.
 

50 pounds of hard, strong, and heavy armor is just as uncomfortable and hot at 30th level as 1st.

And by the same logic, an orc is just as big and hits you just at hard at 30th level as at 1st.

Jeez, if SCA dweebs can happily sleep in their armour, why do you have a problem with 30th level demigods being able to?
 

Barbarian? Oh yeah, feat tax. Warlock?

BARBARIAN AGILITY
While you are not wearing heavy armor, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and Reflex. The bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level.

So, Barbarian's get a boost to their AC and REF if they not using Heavy Armor and don't have DEX as a primary or main secondary stat. Even assuming 18/18/12 (STR/CHA/DEX) starting, then that's a 15 AC in Hide armor. Not good, I'll agree, but about as good as a Wizard. This can be corrected by a single feat too, Chain proficiency, which any Barbarian should be able to qualify for. So it's at least not totally gimping the build, and requires only feat to fix it for the most part.

As for the Warlock, that's not really an issue. You're generally supposed to be going CHA/INT or CON/INT, not CHA/CON. The class entry for Warlock specifically mentions this, which means that to build a CHA/CON is to go out and specifically build a class that was not balanced to work that way, and will have issues. Those issues being, low AC.

I mean, if we're gonna go against any kind of build advice here, then why not have my STR/CON Fighter wear Cloth? Or maybe put the Wizard into Plate that he's not proficient in? I'll grant you that the Barbarian out of the box, and following suggested build guidelines has some issues and probably requires a feat to fix. But the Warlock? No.

You consider profiency at Chain being proficient to melee fight in an encounter? The bottom line is that one type of PC requires an ability score or gets crappy AC, and another type of PC does not. Yes there are often options, but they are not always good ones, or they are costly ones.

Again, you're throwing stuff about classes into a discussion about equipment, but fine. You know what else we're talking about? A Fighter with three skill choices, versus the Ranger or Rogue with, what? Five skills? And a much larger skill list to boot? There are many things all balancing out here, which is why you just can't arbitrarily tug on this thread or that one without looking at the system as a whole. Defenders typically have a lot of armor and weapon proficiencies, but suffer smaller class skill lists and a low number of skill choices to make. They get more HP and Surges, but they also have mechanics that encourage attacks, do less damage (I'm talking about the heavy armor + shield builds here...Tempest Fighters and other Defender/Strikers are totally different, and usually use light armor) and are more limited outside of combat.

Do you need both legs to walk?

To me, it's common sense that one needs both arms to climb, even if someone is using their legs. Using one arm might be possible, but I'm upping the climb DC as a DM. Ditto for Swimming.

Well, you mentioned climbing down a rope, but didn't give specifics. Decending down a rope one handed I don't think is that difficult. Swimming with one hand is even easier actually, try it sometime (you're slower, but it's basically kinda like a modified backstroke, only more out to the side). I myself have done that many a time when I start to get tired, alternating between arms to give each one a break.

Point is though, I was mainly saying that you didn't seem to tell your PC that she had to stow her gear until after she reached the bottom and found out she was in a fight. At least saying "You need both hands free, or one hand and you'll take a -5 penalty" would've allowed her to weigh her options first.

There are players (and DMs) that "in the name of RAW", throw common sense out with the bathwater. And actually, this wasn't the first time that this type of thing has occurred. The player had seen it multiple times in the past, she just zoned and then was annoyed when I played the game consistently as I had in the past.

Now that it's explained better though, then yes, it seems that your player just zoned out. I was just pointing out though that people do use things like ropes one handed, and swim one handed. If you're going for "common sense" and "vermisilitude", then you also shouldn't outright bar things that actually do exist.

Similar to: the PCs are in a tavern. A fight breaks out. No, the Fighter doesn't have his shield strapped to his arm or his weapon out unless he told the DM ahead of time that it happened. And, PCs aren't wearing their backpacks at the table either. The backpacks are there, but they are leaning against the table or a chair and if the PCs rush out of the room, I'll remind them that they were not getting a drink with a 40 pound backpack on their backs. Verisimilitude should occur at least some of the time.

And this I would likely be fine with. You're taking away a shield here, not their whole AC bonus! Although, depending on how frequently fights break out in bars, I might just start keeping the shield handy and just drinking one handed. ;)

And Thieves often make their Stealth rolls while other PCs are spotted. Your point? Pros and Cons. Some PCs are good at something, others are not.

That in no way addresses the point here. The whole point of this house rule of yours was to encourage PC's to go into some situations with their armor off, because that would be more realistic. Bringing in whether or not a Thief can succeed on a stealth check is just completely off on a tangent here.

I don't buy into the argument that WotC is omnipotent and their ideas of what can make a game fun necessarily must be whatever is designed into the game.

No one said they were omnipotent. However, it is true that it was a 3e rule, and that it was eliminated. I would think that was intentional, ergo, it was eliminated for a reason. That reason being: it's not fun for heavy AC users and it penalizes them. My opinion of WotC and their system has nothing to do with that.

No doubt. I have no problem with that. I just want the players to roleplay, not rollplay. Wearing armor every second of the day is rollplaying.

But all you're doing is forcing a different kind of "rollplay" here. You're forcing them to optimize for a skill check so that they can wear their armor, or optimize for being unarmored. You're also, ironically, elminating some "roleplay" options.

Take the Adamantine Soldier Epic Destiny, for example:
You know that armor is more than just a piece of equipment. It’s a second skin, and it’s the face you show the world. You’ve made it a hallmark of your legend. When your helmed silhouette appears on the horizon, your admirers take hope and your enemies quail. Those same folk might fail to recognize your face, but they easily identify your superhuman shell.

So, under the system that your houserules seek to create, that's sort of an invalid choice. This is supposed to be a character that mastered armor in the same way that a Kensei masters the sword. It's their second skin, that they never take off...except when dicated by DM houserules of course.

Examples of this sort of character abound in ancient stories. Take The Illiad, where Ajax the Great is recognized for his massive that he always carries with him. Or Achilles and his armor. So closely was it associated with him that when Patroclus donned he was actually mistaken for Achilles. And then there is Hector of the Golden Armor. The very rules that you're creating to enforce roleplay eliminate (or create difficulty) the ability to roleplay counterparts to these famous figures of myth and legend.
 


So, Barbarian's get a boost to their AC and REF if they not using Heavy Armor and don't have DEX as a primary or main secondary stat. Even assuming 18/18/12 (STR/CHA/DEX) starting, then that's a 15 AC in Hide armor. Not good, I'll agree, but about as good as a Wizard. This can be corrected by a single feat too, Chain proficiency, which any Barbarian should be able to qualify for. So it's at least not totally gimping the build, and requires only feat to fix it for the most part.

Like I said. Feat tax. You asked for an example, I gave you two.

PS. I think that Psions and Wizard and Sorcerers (and some others) limited to Cloth armor only are prime candidates for AC feat tax. Very few players of these types of PCs play the game without feat boosting their AC because it is so low straight out of the box that the PC can easily die if the DM decides to focus fire on him.

As for the Warlock, that's not really an issue. You're generally supposed to be going CHA/INT or CON/INT, not CHA/CON. The class entry for Warlock specifically mentions this, which means that to build a CHA/CON is to go out and specifically build a class that was not balanced to work that way, and will have issues. Those issues being, low AC.

The reason I pointed out Warlock was because although such a PC is basically forced to put Dex second (more or less), it totally gimps the versatility of a Warlock for some Warlock powers. I've put together a few Warlocks where I go "Damn, I cannot get this Con power because it's a Cha Warlock".

I'll grant you that the Barbarian out of the box, and following suggested build guidelines has some issues and probably requires a feat to fix. But the Warlock? No.

A Cha/Str Paladin is easily possible. No feats required for AC. He gets almost any Cha or Str Paladin power he wants and he gets high AC. Because of his heavy armor, he can be a two ability score PC and neither of those is Dex or Int.

Warlock, it's not really feasible to do both Con and Cha ability scores well shy of actually buying Chain Proficiency and again, it's feat (and Str ability score) tax.

I'm not saying that it's not possible, I'm saying that the player has to spend a minimum of a single feat to get semi-decent AC and manage the two ability score model that he wants. That's totally a feat tax compared to the Paladin.

You can avoid the feat tax, but then you avoid the versatility of the class as well.

I was just pointing out though that people do use things like ropes one handed, and swim one handed. If you're going for "common sense" and "vermisilitude", then you also shouldn't outright bar things that actually do exist.

Yes, they do. But should the DC be the same, or more difficult when it's done one handed? In real life, I can climb a rope with two hands. I cannot do it at all one handed. Why would I even consider that one handed rope climbing in a roleplaying game should be easy when it's extremely difficult for most people in the real world? That's just plain illogical to me if I'm trying to run a plausible appearing game.

I personally hate dropping vermisilitude and saying "Don't worry, rope climbing one handed is magical in my world, everyone can do it". Gag. :confused:

This is DMing 101. The DM picks the DC based on his understanding of his world, the player isn't entitled to say "but there's no rule on one handed climbing, so you have to allow me to climb one handed with the same DC as the rules say for Climb". Err, no. As DM, I don't. It's perfectly within RAW for a DM to adjudicate more difficult DCs for more difficult attempts at a skill.

But all you're doing is forcing a different kind of "rollplay" here. You're forcing them to optimize for a skill check so that they can wear their armor, or optimize for being unarmored. You're also, ironically, elminating some "roleplay" options.

I'm doing nothing of the sort. What's the problem with losing 1 or 2 healing surges a day for some of the PCs IF the players decide to camp out in the wild? It's the wild. It's cold and damp and unpleasant. If they PCs want a warm fire in a nicely walled shelter, they should go to an inn.

Wearing armor 24/7 is no different, to me, then putting yourself into any other environmental hazard. For example, high altitude.

And actually, the more I think about it, I think that Infiniti2000 has a good point. A set DC makes more sense cause it agrees more with the Environmental Hazard rules and would make this an issue at Heroic and somewhat at Paragon, but it wouldn't affect Epic too much.

DC 10 + core armor bonus would be DC 12 for Leather, DC 18 for Plate. Totally reasonable house rule.

Take the Adamantine Soldier Epic Destiny, for example:

When Battlerage Vigor first came out, people immediately pointed out that it totally ignored the minion rules and that such a Fighter could basically ignore minions completely. When a given rule has any sort of issue for your particular game, you should look for adjustments. This house rule doesn't prevent a player from playing an Adamantine Soldier, it just means that he should talk to the DM about an exception because of the flavor of the Epic Destiny. On the other hand, I've never been in an Epic level game where any of the players took Adamantine Soldier, so it's really a moot point until it actually comes up.
 

wow, i totally didn't expect this to turn into a RAW vs House rule war.

just a note, while the RAW for the light shield says "Description: While you’re using a light shield, you can use your shield hand to hold another item, to climb, and the like, but you can’t make attacks with that hand or with anything in it." the Heavy shield says "Description: While you’re using a heavy shield, you can’t use your shield hand for any other task, since you must use that hand to handle the shield"

Personally I think the reminder probably should have come before climbing down the rope, but that's an honest mistake not poor dming. the rules state that you can climb the rope with the light shield but not the heavy. That's fine for me.

I don't mind the occasional surprise battle in town when everyone is naked, as long as it is a rare occurrence. If you are a DM who likes this and more than a quarter of your encounters are designed to screw up the carefully created characters your players have crafted, I'm surprised you still have players to screw with.

And if your strykers with their massive damage are complaining about the defender (who is pulling attacks off of them) being harder to hit, just remind them "if he dies they target you next" Sleeping in armor only penalizes those who rely on heavy armor to fulfill their role, other characters who don't need it to fulfill their role, you need to come up with ways to screw both sides, or find a way to reward the guys who don't sleep in armor.



Now tonight, the DM houseruled that the endurance DC is 10 + 5 per point of ACP or you lose healing surges, but if you choose to not sleep in armor, you increase your effective HP total for the following day (without affecting bloodied or healing surge values, kinda like a stackable temp HP that lasts and recharges all day) by 5/teir. This way, there is a way to feat out (armor finesse) and a benefit for taking the risk that anyone but a clothy can get (even the leather boys) I think it was a reasonable solution.
 

PS. I think that Psions and Wizard and Sorcerers (and some others) limited to Cloth armor only are prime candidates for AC feat tax. Very few players of these types of PCs play the game without feat boosting their AC because it is so low straight out of the box that the PC can easily die if the DM decides to focus fire on him.

I think the DM is this case is trying to play the wrong game. If the Tank is doing everything he can to pull agro and the dm ignores the fact that that is his hole purpose in the game and focuses on the strikers just because, then he's just being evil. This game is designed around combat roles, if you are just going to ignore them, i suggest all of your players roll defenders or they're all going to die anyway.
 

[B
And this I would likely be fine with. You're taking away a shield here, not their whole AC bonus! Although, depending on how frequently fights break out in bars, I might just start keeping the shield handy and just drinking one handed. ;)

This can be solved easily by letting the PC unlimber & heft the shield with 2 minor actions rather than 1 minor action (1 minor with quickdraw). R1: they can draw weapon (minor) and attack (standard). R2: They can unlimber & heft shield (2 minor) and attack (standard).

I think a general principle of the 4e action economy is that the GM should be wary of depriving PCs of standard actions.
 

Remove ads

Top