Armor Class Feats

[Trainz]

Again: two-handers were just the reason I started down this path, not the main point behind it. Ignoring what kind of weapon someone uses, does the feat look balanced? I was also thinking about the fact that once someone got any natural armor, they could use that MM feat to beef it up - so it had better have some serious prereqs.

Maybe, because a fighter 12 is the minimum level for that fort save. Note that once you get the feat, you can take the one from the Monster Manual, but it's not on the fighter's bonus feat list, so it ain't too bad. Also, once someone goes epic, there's a feat (that you can take as often as you want) that gives you +3 to nat armor, so +1 for non-epic sounds reasonable.

Now, note that a munchkin could take one level of fighter, one level of ranger, one level of paladin, and one level of barbarian (for a 4th level character) and be eligible for that feat (there's a feat slot at level 6). Maybe it's better to go with BAB 12 for prereq...

 

[FireLance]

Not to be too pedantic, but when would a competence bonus to AC apply? Would it apply when a character is flat-footed? If he is subject to an attack that ignores armor such as a touch attack or an incorporeal touch attack?

Additional minor nitpick: competence bonuses generally only apply to characteristics that improve with level, such as BAB, saves and skills.

 

[Grayhawk]

What about coming at this from an entirely new angle?

Thick Skin
Prereq: Toughness, base Fort. save +8, Con 15
Benefit: You gain +1 natural armor.

I have a feat in my game called Tough Skin that grants a +1 natural armor bonus to AC. The prereq is 'only' Con 15, but since the charaters in my game are build with the elite array not too many qualify for this (currently it's just 1 of 6 players). Besides, you can only take it once and I don't allow access to the MM feats.

Here are my other AC feats:

Shield Focus: Increases the AC bonus of light and heavy shields by +1.

Shield Expert: Allows you to add your shield bonus from light and heavy shields to your touch AC.

I let Dodge give a +1 dodge bonus to AC against all opponents.

I like your Armor Focus feats (1 for each of the 3 armor types), and will propably add those as well.

 

[evilbob]

Now, note that a munchkin could take one level of fighter, one level of ranger, one level of paladin, and one level of barbarian (for a 4th level character) and be eligible for that feat (there's a feat slot at level 6). Maybe it's better to go with BAB 12 for prereq...

...If someone is a Ftr1/Bar1/Pal1/Rgr1, they will level up about once a century. If someone wants to take massive, massive XP penalties to get that one feat, I say more power to 'em. (Also, don't forget the Toughness feat requirement.)

Not to be too pedantic, but when would a competence bonus to AC apply? Would it apply when a character is flat-footed? If he is subject to an attack that ignores armor such as a touch attack or an incorporeal touch attack?

Additional minor nitpick: competence bonuses generally only apply to characteristics that improve with level, such as BAB, saves and skills.

Excellent point. I had intended the bonus to apply to AC just like a normal armor bonus (but stacking with it), so it would apply to flat-footed, but not touch attacks/incorporeal attacks (it's still just armor). If it helps for game continuity, change the bonus name to something else - like circumstance. The "competence" name was given due to the idea that you are just that much better at moving in and using that armor.

I let Dodge give a +1 dodge bonus to AC against all opponents.

Two people have mentioned just letting dodge apply to everyone. That seems like a massive increase in the power of that feat. I mean, half of the point of that feat - that I've always seen - is that it is only as useful as you can remember to use it. We typically house rule that dodge continues to apply to a chosen foe until you change it, but anything more than that seems quite much. Do many people do this?

 

[Trainz]

...If someone is a Ftr1/Bar1/Pal1/Rgr1, they will level up about once a century. If someone wants to take massive, massive XP penalties to get that one feat, I say more power to 'em.

Actually, if that character is a human, dwarf, or half-elf and only pushes fighter levels afterwards, there are no XP penalties.

 

[evilbob]

What can I say? Totally right. (I still think it'd be a crappy character to play, but you're totally right.)

After thinking about it more, however, I think I like the Thick Skin feat, but if I use it in a game it would need to lose the toughness prereq and perhaps lower the base Fort to 5 - mostly because anyone can just purchase natural armor amulets and other stuff for reasonable prices by the time they could take that feat, and unlike dodge bonuses it wouldn't stack. Then again, it still really makes Dodge look like junk, doesn't it?

 

[Trainz]

What can I say? Totally right. (I still think it'd be a crappy character to play, but you're totally right.)

Oh, I never said it would be fun, just trying to spot all loopholes (it's a DM automatism to always look for loopholes. Your campaign cannot survive without it.).

After thinking about it more, however, I think I like the Thick Skin feat, but if I use it in a game it would need to lose the toughness prereq and perhaps lower the base Fort to 5 - mostly because anyone can just purchase natural armor amulets and other stuff for reasonable prices by the time they could take that feat, and unlike dodge bonuses it wouldn't stack.

But it would.

Natural armor by a feat gives or improves BASIC natural armor, which stacks with itself. FURTHERMORE, amulets of natural armor grant an enhancement bonus to natural armor, which piles up even more with nat armor.

In effect, a minotaur character (base nat armor +5) who picks the nat armor feat 4 times (another +4) and who wears an amulet of natural armor +4 has a total natural armor bonus of 13, which of course piles up with magical suit of armor, a shield, a prot ring, and a force shield ring.

Such a 12th level character, using the wealth by level limit in the DMG, could have a +2 weapon and an AC of... 47. His touch AC would suck though.

Then again, it still really makes Dodge look like junk, doesn't it?

Indeed.

 

[evilbob]

But it would.

Wow, twice in a row! In that case, higher prereqs are certainly in order, although I still shy away from such an awful feat as toughness. Maybe just base fort 8 and Con 15.

Other ideas for armor class raising feats?

 

[Trainz]

Maybe going the natural armor way isn't that great.

Your original armor optimisation route wasn't so bad.

Also, you might want to house-rule dodge to be better. +1 AC vs one opponent has never been a primer IMC, my players only take it if it's a prereq for other more interesting feats.

YMMV, HTH AAT

 

[Eltern]

IMC:
Dodge applies to everyone
Natural Amour of +1 requires a Con 15 and a Fort base of +8
Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor Feats
Similar Feats for Shields

So if you wanna, the Two-hander can get up there in the AC, but the sword and board can get EVEN BETTER, which allows balance, but options. The S&B doing what he does best will have a higher AC than the two-hander, but the two-hander can start doing the AC game if he wants.

Of course, once you get to around level 15 you're screwed anyway. The big monsters' BAB are higher than anything you could possibly have.

IMC there's a dwarven fighter doing two-handed greataxe who just hit level 10 and is now trying to figure out what to do, and all this will probably look interesting.