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Array Comparisons based on Point Buy
- Thread starter Technik4
- Start date
IMC the attributes of the PCs must be created by point buy. IMC the player have to build their attributes with 28 points but the NPCs and monster also recieve 28 points for their attributes. 
If they want to play with more point buy points the monsters and NPCs also get them.
I dislike more points because then too many PCs have a 18 and no disadvantage in an attribute. With 28 points you have to take an disadvantage in an attribute to get an 18 in another attribute. Like real life if your exceptional in one attributes (e.g. intelligence) you have a disadvantage in another (genius are often bookworms, so they don´t go often to the gym or socialize, so the genius has disadvantages in str or cha or in both). IMC the PCs are heroes not because of their exceptional attributes but because of their courage, deeds, etc.
If they want to play with more point buy points the monsters and NPCs also get them. I dislike more points because then too many PCs have a 18 and no disadvantage in an attribute. With 28 points you have to take an disadvantage in an attribute to get an 18 in another attribute. Like real life if your exceptional in one attributes (e.g. intelligence) you have a disadvantage in another (genius are often bookworms, so they don´t go often to the gym or socialize, so the genius has disadvantages in str or cha or in both
). IMC the PCs are heroes not because of their exceptional attributes but because of their courage, deeds, etc.This is exactly my point. Players who are willing to sacrifice for their 18 are sacrificing all the gravy, while retaining their power. Then, as a DM, I'm supposed to punish them for having low charisma and mechanically they have gimped themselves with their other low scores.
My point with arrays is that if you don't let them have the 18, it doesn't really matter how many points you give them in their ancillary abilities. I guess some of this was in response to Henry stating he thought more points at character creation can in effect add +1 ECL to a character. I agreed at the time, but really, if people want the power they will sacrifice everything to get it (even on a low low point buy).
I had a friend play a Psychic Warrior/Monk using that array - to pretty good effect. It's also a typical archtype among people you meet that the rules don't really support - the person that is approximately equal at everything they do. While that was made with 36 pt buy, for the wrong character, you would never see the power (A wizard, for instance).
This reinforces that an array is weaker than point-buy. With point buy you can customize, alter abilities, trade points, etc. With an array all you can do is arrange. Imo, all of those characters are 'playable', the ones made up of more 'expensive' arrays merely have more out-of-combat things they can do (or more roles they can assume, or to be more precise, more potent roles).
I think very few people reroll if all their scores are higher than 11. I also don't think the rules imply that a character without an 11 (or lower) is too powerful. 11 itself is considered average. You are claiming that every hero in d&d should begin with at least 1 below-average score (you aren't claiming so much as interpreting the rules, but thats a minor distinction)?
That is, in essence, what I was arguing. The fact that the array I'm using in my upcoming campaign can be derived from a 36 point buy does not equate with me necessarily playing a Super 'High-Powered' Campaign because: 1) Due to 3 odd ability scores the array could also be made using a 32 point buy and 2) Arrays are inherently weaker than point buy as there is no customization. In the final analysis, I decided there would be no way for players to start with an 18, short of rolling it (4d6dl, reroll 1s, 6 times, arrange as you please). If you are unhappy with your rolls, you can still take the array, but the 16 becomes a 15 (greed = bad).
What? First I was discussing the difference between an array based on point buy and point buy itself (obliquely pointing out that arrays are weaker), and secondly I was showing that the only difference between the majority of the arrays is that your weaker stats become weaker...thus limiting roleplaying potential (without diminishing your combat or 'mechanical' potential very much). How does that equate with giving 4 free feats and 22 point buy?
I agree with you, but don't you think there are people who have 18s and don't necessarily have disadvantages (or below average ability scores)? Not every genius is anti-social and not every jock is stupid, that kind of stereotyping seems really backwards to me. I do think it can be fun to roleplay that kind of swing in ability scores, and I dont begrudge anyone doing that, but to say that is the only way to get an 18 seems harsh (this coming from the DM who is forcing his players to roll an 18, may sound ironic).
I want heroes in my campaign to be heroes because of their courage, deeds, etc; I also want them to be able to build up non-combat stats, have some fun assigning skill points, and be more versatile than I feel lower 'point-buy derived arrays' allow for.
Technik
PS
I was in the military as a linguist and generally thought of my peers as slightly-above average, or towards the end of my enlistment, dead on average (so many jackasses). Upon getting out, I realize my peers were easily above the norm of society and I would consider the microcosm of ENWorld to generally be say, 25% more intelligent, wise, and/or charismatic than the average person on this planet (no offense to people who don't come to this site).
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Altalazar
First Post
That's a very astute point - that the lower powered point buys really just force people into more 1D characters when it comes to abilities.
I prefer 32-36 point buys for my games, player or DM. As a player, it allows me to make all sorts of interesting characters. As a DM it allows me to keep the gloves off, because the players will truly be heroes, not average schmos. And they can make more colorful and interesting, while still effective, characters.
I prefer 32-36 point buys for my games, player or DM. As a player, it allows me to make all sorts of interesting characters. As a DM it allows me to keep the gloves off, because the players will truly be heroes, not average schmos. And they can make more colorful and interesting, while still effective, characters.
Crothian
First Post
Technik4 said:
It is their choice to do this. Like when I ran a dwarf campaign and a player played an elf. His life was hell becasue the dwarves didn't like him but it was his choice. As DM you referee the rule and the characters as they are made. You are not punish the character, you are letting him sleep in the bed he made.
If a player has a concept of 'Mage Prodigy' or 'Innovative Warrior', etc etc using smaller point buys or lower powered arrays make it more difficult for them to stat what they want to play. I'm not sure that could be disagreed.
If a system tells you the max is 18 and you want to play someone who is the max, using lower point buys, you must then punish them (Bad Friend! You should have wanted to play an Above-Average Mage intsead of a Near-Genius Mage!) because of their 'choice'?
Or, forcing players to sleep in beds with an old mattress and moth-ridden sheets is not so much their fault - they were working with what they were given.
Technik
Crothian
First Post
Technik4 said:
A character is more then just stats. With skills and feats and class choices and a creative background these can be done with lesser point buys. It might be a little more diufficult but it can be done
It is not a punishment, it is playing by the rules. Yes, if the character wants and 18 the other stats will be lower. the player knows this, the DM knows this, everyone knows this. There is no punishment, there is only following the rules.
Okay, I'm not sure how this fits in with the above, but if all the players have is old mattress and moth ridden sheets then they sleep on them or the ground.
broghammerj
Explorer
Our group just uses 75 points to distribute amongst any attributes anyway you want it. An old player in our group told me this was how some sort of tourneys determined attributes (maybe RPGA?). Anyways, I plugged in the numbers and this falls somewhere between the 32 and 28 point buy.
I've always felt that you should have the freedom to do what you want so why restrict it to a point buy. To me this just draws everyone under the bell curve so to speak and makes attributes more "well rounded". Why do I have to suffer to get an 18 under an point array system if thats what I want for a character?
I've always felt that you should have the freedom to do what you want so why restrict it to a point buy. To me this just draws everyone under the bell curve so to speak and makes attributes more "well rounded". Why do I have to suffer to get an 18 under an point array system if thats what I want for a character?
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