D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[aramis erak]

That's the point I'm trying to make, even in point buy, you can pick 13s for everything and as a human end up with 14s.

How many people actually do that? My guess is, probably none.

Actually, the most even array under point buy is 13/13/13/12/12/12 for the 27 point limit. Which, with human, is 14/14/14/13/13/13 - +2's and +1's, but with variant human, is 14/14/13/12/12/12 + feat.

And I have done that. In 5E.

My next build will likely be 15/12/12/12/12/10. The guy who is bad at nothing, but has a specialty. I'm thinking ranger...

I've seen several "even-ish" builds.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I agree that for someone who shares your assumptions in bold probably won't have a problem with verisimilitude under point buy. I don't share those assumptions[...]

Does this mean you ignore the recommendations from (at least) 2e-and-later, which say that "commoners" (or some term like that) should be generated differently from player characters, because player characters come from an inherently unusual sub-population?

[...] in particular, I see PCs as approximately a random sample of a sub-population within the gameworld (not "all inhabitants of the gameworld", but the difference isn't important). Because I don't share your assumption, I don't share your conclusion that verisimilitude is unaffected.

So...you do realize that selecting sub-populations can wildly change the statistical information about a group, right? Particularly when you're talking about a group that shares a statistically rare trait (e.g. dungeon-delving, which is generally portrayed as the profession choice only of the desperate, demented, or devoted). And, further, that by focusing on a very small sub-population, it is entirely possible for bizarre correlations--which wouldn't normally hold--to come out, specifically because you're looking at a massively reduced sample size?

It is okay if you don't share my conclusions. Remember, all we're doing is explaining what factors other than nostalgia explain distaste for point buy. All you have to do is say, "Hmmph. That's an interesting way to play."

Well, as long as people aren't making wild leaps of logic (like saying that, if you don't like random stats, you obviously hate all randomness ever, and thus why are you even playing D&D) or baseless insults (if you don't use random stats you're not really playing D&D), sure.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Rolling stats adds some character build variety to the game. With point buy, there is an optimal selection (for the primary stats at least) for a given race / class / feat combo, and that's that.

Well...uh...no, it's not. I could, in fact, link you to a forum thread I started where I asked, more or less, "What would I sacrifice if I went for the stats I'd like rather than balls-out best?" (I won't because it was posted on a different forum, but if you want the link, I can give it to you.)

And the response generally was, "Not much, though your life will be a little bit harder. Try to pick up (mundane gear option), or consider (core character option) to help." It was not "how on earth could you consider that," nor was it "this is the best, never use anything else." Hell, even the charop threads I read (for cruft-filtering, not for hardcore optimization) almost always recommend at least three different possible ways you could go, AND give more general advice about all stats (some--I'd argue the really good ones--even mentioning how you can try to make them useful even if they wouldn't be).

So...no, it's not just "use the ONE SINGLE *absolute BEST* set of stats, end of story." I've ignored the "standard" advice, which doesn't even make things as rigid as you claim, and asked others what they think, and been pretty much assured there's no real issue.

Or, perhaps another way of putting it: You seem to be conflating "uses point buy" with "heavily optimizes." The two are not the same thing, and it is entirely possible to prefer point-buy while having minimal interest in (or even antipathy for) optimization. I have a minimal interest in it, in that I (as a player) wish to be sure that I'm not accidentally making foolish choices when I could make smart ones, all things *including the fiction* being equal.

I shudder to think of how certain people who can't handle their characters dying gracefully would react to something truly awful happening to them in real life. Not something I want to be around. Characters living or dying, this stat bonus total or that one, don't matter.

Wow. Just...do you really have to add this sort of thing? Totally needless aspersions cast on the moral fiber of anyone who doesn't share your preferences? Does this actually help people agree with you in any way?

If everyone's the top, nobody is. If everyone's special, nobody is.

What do you mean by "the top" or "special"? Because, just as I said earlier in the thread, this argument is garbage unless you actually explain the meaning--it's the fallacy of equivocation. If "the top" means "the best at what they do," then it's patently foolish: "If everyone [in the party] is 'the best at what they do,' then nobody [in the party] is 'the best at what they do.'" If you define "special" as "has a unique ability possessed by no one else," it becomes even worse: "If everyone has a unique ability possessed by no one else, then no one has a unique ability possessed by no one else." Even as a statistical argument, it only holds if you sneak in a shift in the statistic, e.g. "if every PC is above person-in-this-world average, then no PC is above the party average" or "if every PC is above the old average, then no PC is above the new average." For both of these clearly-defined cases, it reduces to something useless: either a contradiction (the first two are "If X, then not-X"), or a trivial mathematical truism (changing the average means the average is different).

Min maxing is actually more fun when you don't know you stats. So for either type of gamer, the roleplayer or the minmaxer, rolling is better.

Uh...No? Because, again, I have way more fun with point-buy than I do with rolled stats, which generally frustrate me and--in older versions of D&D--could have even overtly denied me access to the classes I actually wanted to play. And I roleplay to the hilt. I *will* take choices that are to my (character's) disadvantage, IF doing so is motivated by the fiction. I did it in Dungeon World, where everyone has the same starting array and gets +1 stat point per level (with the old style of bonus, not the new "every 2 points = +1 modifier" stuff).

I'll also take advantageous ones, IF doing so is motivated by the fiction. And where there is no fiction to guide me? I'll do what sounds best to me--because I don't play characters who knowingly gimp themselves, as that makes no sense, and if *I* think something sounds pretty good, there's a good chance that, even in the fiction, my character would come to a similar conclusion.

Rolling is un-fun, specifically for me, because I utterly loathe the concept of "ability roulette." I don't *want* the dice to tell me what character to play. The dice can go f*ck themselves, for all I care. It's almost effortless for me to come up with a character concept I'd enjoy playing, simply by looking at what options are available to me. Like, effortless to the point that I sometimes intentionally avoid reading the books too much once I've got a concept I like--because I'll start coming up with more, and then be paralyzed by indecision about which one I want to play *right now.* And once I do have a concept, I don't want some mindless dice to come along and say, "Nope, f*ck you, you don't get to play what YOU want, you HAVE to play what 'luck'(/highly complicated physical processes) decided you should. Which, incidentally, is nothing you're actually interested in most of the time!"

 

[Geistrin]

How does a topic like this make it to nearly 60 pages? The games you participate in are private and governed by rules designed to be malleable to the tastes of those involved. Why not just play it however your group thinks is fun and leave at that? If this were something like an MMO where everyone uses the same rules, I could understand advocating your preferences to the public. But in a self-contained private game, just discuss it with your friends (they ARE your friends, right?).

Attempting to lobby outside players to rally behind one's opinion on this matter strikes me as an attempt to legitimize a position that is unpopular with your private group, and thereby pressure them to do it your way.

Discussions like this remind me how little I care about anyone else's homebrew, and moreover, how much I dread being backed into a corner and hearing about it.

 

[Ranes]

How does a topic like this make it to nearly 60 pages?

Er, given the circumstances, is that a trick question?

Welcome to EN World, by the way.

 

[Geistrin]

Er, given the circumstances, is that a trick question?

Welcome to EN World, by the way.

What circumstances are those? Full disclosure: I didn't read the whole thread, only about 5 pages to get the gist of the arguments.

And thanks!

 

[Ranes]

What circumstances are those?

Well, by posting to the thread, you [we] make it longer. Enough people do that and you have the answer to your original question.

Anyway, there's more to this thread than disagreement over this or that stat generation technique, as these last few posts indicate.

 

[S_Dalsgaard]

How does a topic like this make it to nearly 60 pages? The games you participate in are private and governed by rules designed to be malleable to the tastes of those involved. Why not just play it however your group thinks is fun and leave at that? If this were something like an MMO where everyone uses the same rules, I could understand advocating your preferences to the public. But in a self-contained private game, just discuss it with your friends (they ARE your friends, right?).

Attempting to lobby outside players to rally behind one's opinion on this matter strikes me as an attempt to legitimize a position that is unpopular with your private group, and thereby pressure them to do it your way.

Discussions like this remind me how little I care about anyone else's homebrew, and moreover, how much I dread being backed into a corner and hearing about it.

You are free to ignore the thread if you don't find it interesting.

The reason I do, is that I like to learn about other ways of playing the game than me and my group does and while the discussion gets a bit heated sometimes and not everyone seems to get, that there are more than one way to play the game, it has generally been a quite civilized discussion, like most on EnWorld I have read. I have access to a very narrow population of players in my area and we do things a certain way, but I'm quite open to trying something new, if someone have a great idea or a different take on the stuff we take for granted.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Does this mean you ignore the recommendations from (at least) 2e-and-later, which say that "commoners" (or some term like that) should be generated differently from player characters, because player characters come from an inherently unusual sub-population?

I'm pretty sure I answered your question here in the paragraph you quoted immediately after you asked this. I do treat PCs as coming from a different subpopulation from commoners, and said as much parenthetically. When I roll commoner stats I will often roll them on e.g. 3d4+2.

 

[S'mon]

[MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION], I don't quite follow your procedure - what gets allocated when. Can you explain a bit more?

The player rolls for each stat starting STR, INT WIS, CON DEX CHA. Say their first roll is an 8, but they want to be a Fighter. Instead of putting it in STR they can put it in INT. But once assigned each number is locked in and cannot be moved later.

The result is that the character still grows organically through the rolls, but with a lot more flexibility than roll-in-order. The last stat rolled is always purely random.

In practice most players do most rolls purely random, but players who want to play Fighter types wait to get a 13+ to assign to STR.

Here is the current PC group. I allowed the Claudia player a full reroll as her first set of stats were
so abysmal. Bramble the Halfling is slightly underpowered due to no STR bonus, but I decided to let
players add +1 to a stat every 4 levels as in 4e so in one level he can get STR 13 which will give him +1 to hit & damage.

Alexandra Vorloi, Armiger of House Vorloi, Lawful
Fighter-3 AC 18 (plate & shield) speed 4 (20')
Hit Points 18
+1 ashen-shaft Trident ATT +2 dam 1d6+2 (melee), 1d6+1 (thrown), 2d6+2 set.
Sword ATT +1 dam 1d8+1
Thrown Spear ATT +1 dam 1d6
Light Lance (spear) mounted charge or set ATT +1 dam 2d6+1
STR 15 (+1) INT 12 (+0) WIS 12 (+0) DEX 14 (+1) CON 16 (+2) CHA 13 (+1)
Light warhorse (courser)
XP: 6630/8000
1/11/19: Alexander Thadeus of the Church of Karameikos (Cleric-3), newly assigned to the diocese of Rugalov as Cleric of Rugalov Town, pledged allegiance to Alexandra in the battle against Chaos. He seems smitten with her.

Ace Plz (Ruyven Kishida) of the Calarii Elves, Lawful
Elf-2 AC 14 (leather) Speed 6 (30')
Hit Points 12
2-handed Sword ATT +1 dam 1d10+1, Longbow ATT +2 dam 1d6
STR 13 (+1) INT 11 (+0) WIS 15 (+1) DEX 16 (+2) CON 13 (+1) CHA 16 (+2)
Spell Book: Read Magic Charm Person Magic Missile Sleep Light
Spells/Day: 2 1st
Light warhorse (courser)
XP: 6480/8000
26/10/1019: Princess Hope Karameikos seems to like Ace - they share an interest in dragons...

Yakov Dmitrov, Donkey-Headed Black Sheep of House Dmitrov, Neutral
Magic-User 3 AC 11 (unarmoured - Claudia has the +2 ruby ring) Speed 8 (40')
Hit Points 8
STR 8 (-1) INT 11 (+0) WIS 16 (+2) DEX 13 (+1) CON 10 (+0) CHA 15 (+1)
Spell Book: Read Magic Charm Person Magic Missile Sleep Light
Spells/day: 2 1st, 1 2nd
wand of illusion c.7, 3 unknown potions.
Golden Staff ATT -1 dam 1d4-1. Hunting Bow ATT +1 dam 1d4
Light warhorse (courser)
XP: 6480/10000
28/10/19: The old Cleric Aleeva Vloitescu really went off Yakov when he tried to cast 'charm' on her.

Rian, Cleric of the Church of Traldar
Cleric-3, Neutral
AC 14 (leather & shield)
Hit Points 13
ST 14 (+1) IN 9 (+0) WI 11 (+0) DE 14 (+1) CO 13 (+1) CH 15 (+1)
Leather (speed 30'), Shield
Sling ATT +1 dam 1d4
Spear ATT +1 dam 1d6+1
XP 5825/6000
Junior Cleric, in service to Lord Vlad Lutescu of Rugalov Town, sent by him to Rugalov Keep.

PCs Absent - at Rugalov Keep?

Claudia Morrigan, Neutral
Thief-4 AC 17 (leather, +2 ruby ring of protection) Speed 6 (30')
Hit points 10+d4 - NOT ROLLED YET
ST 13 (+1) IN 10 (+0) WI 7 (-1) DE 18 (+3) CO 11 (+0) CH 14 (+1)
+1 attribute bonus
E: Thieves' Tools, Leather armour, +2 ring of protection
2-handed sword ATT +1 dam 1d10+1
Short bow ATT +3 dam 1d6
Light warhorse (courser)
XP 5505/10000

Bramble Hairy-Heals of the Five Shires, Lawful
Halfling-3 AC 15 (chainmail & shield) speed 4 (20')
Hit Points 9+d6+1 - NOT ROLLED YET
+1 Shortsword +2 vs Elves & Fairies, 'the sword of Samwise' ATT +1 dam 1d6+1
Sling +1 dam 1d4
STR 12 (+0) INT 14 (+1) WIS 13 (+1) DEX 11 (+0/+1 init & missile) CON 13 (+1) CHA 12 (+0)
Donkey
XP: 5655/8000