Art of Roleplaying - Pacing and Plot

[Elf Witch]

As a player I find the best games are the ones that are about more than just killing things and taking their loot and building the most powerful DM proofed PC.

The best games I ever played were the games were I cared about what happened to the world and to the people in it not just the party but the NPCs as well.

The show Buffy was a lot like that too you. Even the guest cast (NPCs) had motivations other than just being the bad guy look at Spike. he went from being another smart mouth vamp to saving the world.

The best ways to get your players involved is to let thwm have a stake in what happens in the world make them see that thier actions have consequences both postive and negative.

Pacing is important too nothing bogs a game down than the PCs spinning their wheels because they can't figure out what to do. A good DM can help by stepping in with a NPC who just might be able to give them a hint.

And there is more than death to threaten the PCs sometimes it is good to make them have to choose the lesser of two evils or to realize that they they may not always win. If your players like this kind of thing that is. If all they want is loot then this kind of game does not work.

 

[Knightcrawler]

Yes you have to involve your players. The more they have invested in a story the more they will care about what happens.

Also all your bad guys cannot be pure evil. THere has be be gray areas and complicate villans. Everything cannot be in black and white. The PC's should struggle with some of their decisions. If they feel that they would do the same thing if put in that position then they won't go around killing the villans with no thought.

 

[maddman75]

What you are saying isn't exactly new. You are basically laying out the typical plot structure for a fiction book, which looks like this:

Incentive
Rising Action (The Problem Develops/ Heroes work on it)
Climax (The big confrontation)
Falling Action (The Plot moves towards resolution)
Resolution

Sure this makes for a good RPG game, because RPG games at their best are interactive stories, and these types of stories (traditional wisdom has it) are the most exciting.

So much good stuff, I'll need a couple of replies I think.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was aiming at, but considering how the interactive nature of an RPG affects that. The difference is that the fiction writer doesn't have to worry about the rogue smarting off to the magistrate just for the hell of it, or the warrior to not show up this week. Or for that matter running out of time and not being able to finish the chapter the way he wanted.

 

[maddman75]

The Gamemastering sections of Monte Cook's d20 Call of Cthulhu contain some of the best words ever written on the subject of creating good game sessions. Two ideas that ring very, very true:

"Promise A Story"

"Deliver A Threat"

The first one is important because of what it DOESN'T say -- it doesn't say "Tell A Story". Promise. DM's are not storytellers -- they are story facilitators. It's not your job (or rather, it's not your job alone) to make the game session exciting -- the players have to chip in, too. What the DM has to do is provide the promise of a story -- a notion of a possibility, be it the old man with a bag of gold in a tavern or something a little more sophisticated.

Likewise with "Deliver A Threat" -- I know that I can get pretty caught up in making sure all the monsters are appropriate ELs and everything, without ever thinking of the idea of making the players feel threatened. Any good story carries with it a sense of urgency. Imagine if Beowulf arrived at Heorot and the folks said, "Yeah, there's this monster Grendel who's eaten some folks, but she won't be back for another six years. Could you take care of that sometime for us?"

No.

This is a point where most published modules fall down, because it's so hard for them to integrate into a campaign enough to be able to deliver a threat to the PCs.

If the old man with the bag of gold gets torn apart by shadow mastiffs in the tavern, who then turn on the party as the night outside fills with haunted baying -- THAT'S a threat getting delivered.

Even better are those long-term threats that the party cannot easily rid themselves of -- cults and conspiracies are good for these sorts of things.

But anyway, both those ideas can help DMs manage their plots and pacing -- at least, they've helped me a lot.

One of my fellow players/DMs is the master of this. He'll include encounters that on first glance are going to completely annialate the party, but if you keep your head and think you can get through it. Example - wandering through a ruined defiled city we get jumped by four demons. First round one of them charms one paladin and nearly drops the second one. We all soil our armor, until the fighter manages to hit one of the things and has to make a saving throw.

Illusions. There's only one demon, hoping to throw us into chaos with some illusionary companions. Almost worked too.

 

[maddman75]

Yes but a good DM can almost always bring out the best in players and get them involved not matter how mediocre the players are. But if you have a bad DM it doesn't matter if you have the best, most involved players in the world the game is still going to suck. You promise them the story but then the players have to go and find that story and get it moving. And their actions expand the story.

This is something that I struggle with, and is a good part of my motive in starting this discussion. While I like to think I'm a pretty good DM, and people always show for my games, I know where I could use improvement.

Most of it is the nature of my players and my inability to draw them out. Most of them are what Ranger Wickett in the other thread called Steam Venters. Gaming is just an excuse to kill monsters and take their stuff. All their characters have no background, they utterly refuse to have any connection to the campaign world. If I try to force it it comes like this -

What's your background? - I'm an orphan and decided to become an adventurer. Just like my last ten characters.
What are you motivated by? What do you care about? - I want to get money and go up levels. And get magic. Just like my last ten characters.

What I struggle with is trying to develop anything for characters like that. Its a lot harder to develop subplots and such when your characters don't care about anything except killing things and taking their stuff. I also feel the need to railroad. They practically requrie it. If I present options, they try to figure out which one they are 'supposed' to do. I can't get it through to them that they aren't supposed to do anything, that any action has consequences.

I don't ask for a freaking ten page dissertation. A couple of sentances would at least be something. Like 'I was an escaped slave. My biggest concern is making sure that no one controls me like that ever again.' Just something!

Basically I have a problem group and I'd like to make it better. If they like action, I can give them action. But I wish they'd meet me halfway. DMing over a group like this gets to be unfun.

 

[Knightcrawler]

Are all your players like this or just some? Have you sat down and talked to them about your concerns?

Maybe what you should start doing is making storying lines that are almost completely roleplaying with very, very few battles.

If all your players are like this and you have talked to them and they refuse to do anything diffrent. Then my advice would be to find a new group of players. There are points where even the best DM can't get a power gamer/hack-n-slasher to start roleplaying. Perhaps you have reached that point and its time to part ways.

 

[woolybearundertaker]

There are points where even the best DM can't get a power gamer/hack-n-slasher to start roleplaying. Perhaps you have reached that point and its time to part ways.

True, but on the other hand, some players just need a little direction to come up with a background.

Try this link:

Link removed

If anything, it might be overly detailed, but if you ignore the sections you don t like/need, it could be useful in getting your players to create interesting character backgrounds.

As a quick and dirty method, try to have every player come up with a famous personality (Hans Solo, Arsenio Hall, whoever) who most closely embodies their PC. It might help your players to get into their roleplaying if they have a solid personality to base their roleplaying around.

Good luck!

EDIT - I'm afraid the link goes to a former Dragon Magazine article that is still copyrighted. Unless Scott Bennie (who actually posts to these boards) himself gives permission to report it, I have to remove the link. No harm done, but I can't allow copyrighted material.

 

[Knightcrawler]

A nice little document. Some good guidelines. But might be a little vague for some people, some would need more structured guidance. Thats why I like to use the tables from the Hero Builders Guidebook. I have everyone role from the tables in the book and then come up with a couple of paragraphs. I've had people come up with anything from 3 to 4 paragraphs all the way to 2 or 3 pages of background based on these rolls. It gives the player a basic idea about their characters background. Also then I don't have people whining about something that I let someone have as part of their background, its all up to the fall of the dice.

 

[maddman75]

Are all your players like this or just some? Have you sat down and talked to them about your concerns?

Maybe what you should start doing is making storying lines that are almost completely roleplaying with very, very few battles.

If all your players are like this and you have talked to them and they refuse to do anything diffrent. Then my advice would be to find a new group of players. There are points where even the best DM can't get a power gamer/hack-n-slasher to start roleplaying. Perhaps you have reached that point and its time to part ways.

We're friends and family - I'd like to find a way to make it work. And it isn't all them either, part of the problem is pacing and generating engaging plots. I had a second group and had a wonderful campaign, but the main players moved. Trying to put another one back together, but it takes some time.

 

[Knightcrawler]

So you need to sit down and have a duscussion with the players that are having problems. Just make sure that you can suggest specific fixes to the problems. Use the Hero Builders Guide or come up with your own system, something anything that will give them some structure to work around.

Another thing you may want to do is to take a break from gaming so that you can have some time to come up some engaging plots. Just make sure that this break is a set amount of time otherwise it could become indefinite.