Let's talk about "plot", "story", and "play to find out."

[Nytmare]

Don't McDonalds rotate things in and out of their menu all the time? Is that exclusionary of people who like those items?

( I know how the weirdos who jump up on the counter and throw a temper tantrum because they can't get Szechuan sauce anymore would vote... )

 

[AnotherGuy]

So you're inventing a personal definition for exclusion. Understood and noted for the future when you say you've been excluded from things.

I did use the word perceived upthread.

What is important to note is that the game made some major changes.
It's mechanics promoted a certain playstyle and made it harder to integrate some other playstyle.
To those people of the other playstyle, the game seems to have excluded them.
In the same way so many of us grognards (and possibly even you at some point) say We are not the people being marketed to anymore.

Are we being excluded, in a way yes.
It does not mean one PHYSICALLY cannot play the game.

Why is this so hard to understand, Hestia only knows!

EDIT: And just because its mandatory on the net, this post is not a value judgment of 4e. This is me finding it incredulous that people are finding it hard to understand @Micah Sweet's position on this.
I mean one can question why the dude is stubborn on his preferences or whatever, but to make as though it is impossible to parse the common usage of his words...

 

[Micah Sweet]

Don't McDonalds rotate things in and out of their menu all the time? Is that exclusionary of people who like those items?

...yeah, to a degree.

 

[Thomas Shey]

...yeah, to a degree.

I certainly stopped going to one food chain (Boston Market) because they stopped carrying the thing I wanted there. You can argue that was just them deciding there was a tradeoff between maintaining that product and me (and people like me) as customers, and that's probably true, but it still effectively dismissed me as a customer.

 

[Umbran]

How is that not the same as, "you don't like it? Like it anyway."?

Two things:

1) You get to like what you like, sure. But steadfastly refusing to look at things to see if you can find a way to like it isn't virtuous.

2) Note that the point isn't that I found a way to like football, In general. I still don't - I don't pay any attention at all to regular season play, or the playoffs, or anything. I have not, in my memory, ever watched a whole game of football that wasn't the Superbowl with the Patriots playing.

I found a way to like it enough to enjoy time with my friends maybe once a year, if the team is lucky.

So, it isn't, "like it anyway". It is "find a way to like it enough to get at the things you really want."

 

[Thomas Shey]

So, it isn't, "like it anyway". It is "find a way to like it enough to get at the things you really want."

Though that can very much be "The things I really want aren't so dependent on my liking this I feel the need". I'm not sure what would be required for me to put in the effort to want to sit through a sportsball game. Being physically around friends by itself certainly isn't it.

 

[Umbran]

...yeah, to a degree.

... but it still effectively dismissed me as a customer.

I have, in the course of events, had to actually dismiss a person as a customer, to exclude them, specifically and personally from a place of business, in front of other customers.

Let me be clear, that was nothing like, "Oh, you don't carry the McChocoBroccoli any more? I guess I'll got get the BrocoChocoKing across the street, then."

 

[Micah Sweet]

Two things:

1) You get to like what you like, sure. But steadfastly refusing to look at things to see if you can find a way to like it isn't virtuous.

2) Note that the point isn't that I found a way to like football, In general. I still don't - I don't pay any attention at all to regular season play, or the playoffs, or anything. I have not, in my memory, ever watched a whole game of football that wasn't the Superbowl with the Patriots playing.

I found a way to like it enough to enjoy time with my friends maybe once a year, if the team is lucky.

So, it isn't, "like it anyway". It is "find a way to like it enough to get at the things you really want."

Two things:

1) I feel 1.5 years of genuinely playing a game counts as "looking at things to see if you find a way to like it".

2) what I really want is to play a game I find fun, and to run a game I find fun, and to model a setting using rules that provide a level of sim I prefer. If I just wanted time with my friends there are plenty of other ways to do that. I gave it a fair shake, but 4e wasn't that game.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I have, in the course of events, had to actually dismiss a person as a customer, to exclude them, specifically and personally from a place of business, in front of other customers.

Let me be clear, that was nothing like, "Oh, you don't carry the McChocoBroccoli any more? I guess I'll got get the BrocoChocoKing across the street, then."

Not sure what your point is here. As has been suggested, there are different degrees of exclusion.

 

[Pedantic]

Though that can very much be "The things I really want aren't so dependent on my liking this I feel the need". I'm not sure what would be required for me to put in the effort to want to sit through a sportsball game. Being physically around friends by itself certainly isn't it.

I don't mind basketball? If any serious effort was made to balance the teams, there's some really interesting tactical play, and the short duration rounds make it much more watchable than many other sports. American football is too strategic and not especially interesting to parse round to round, the plays are either pretty rote, or too esoterically different.

Sports are just generally less interesting because the efforts to balance the pieces (players) are like, intentionally corrupt and degenerate, and that's somehow a good thing the fans like?