D&D 5E Artificer Alchemist / Warlock = Tons of Elixirs?

[Mistwell]

This thought came from this thread.

I am trying to figure out how to optimize an alchemist, even if that uses multiclassing, feats, or the optional Tasha's rules.

One thought I had was to really stock up on Elixirs. The Alchemist sub-class essentially stores first level spells in a potion, which has to be used before the Alchemists next long rest.

Here is how it works, "You can create additional experimental elixirs by expending a spell slot of 1st level or higher for each one. When you do so, you use your action to create the elixir in an empty flask you touch, and you choose the elixir’s effect from the Experimental Elixir table." The Elixirs are in sum: Heal 2d4+Int, increase speed by 10', +1 AC, Bless, Fly Speed 10', Alter Self. Most of these last 10 minutes.

Now notice it doesn't say an ARTIFICER spell slot, but just "Spell slot". Couldn't you expend a Warlock spell slot, if you had them, instead?

I think you can, unless someone can point out why this wouldn't work. Which means... you can wake up in the morning and then make some elixirs, take a short rest, make some more elixirs, take another short rest, etc.. for several hours before you start the adventuring day. Essentially, you're banking a bunch of first level spells with the above effects.

An Elf Artificer Alchemist 3 / Warlock 2 would be able to wake up with one random elixir, then make 3 with Artificer spell slots, then 2 more with Warlock spell slots, starting the day with 6 elixirs. Then, they can short rest, and make two more with Warlock spell slots. Short rest again, 2 more, rinse and repeat for at least four hours. Short rest and start your adventuring day with 12 elixirs. I say elf because elves only need 4 hours to get a long rest according to safe advice, "If an elf meditates during a long rest (as described in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for a long rest; only the duration is changed." That means they can get four short rests before the rest of the party even wakes from their long rest.

That's not "broken" but it does seem like it boosts their power up a meaningful amount to at least help them compete balance-wise with some of the other classes (including other artificer sub-classes).

Does this work? Is it useful? Can that artificer meaningfully contribute to the adventure in addition to the elixirs?

 

[captainstewart]

The multiclass rules exclude Warlock levels from the counting toward multiclass spell slot progression. To me, that means that Warlock "spell slots" aren't spell slots the way that other casters can conceive of them, and really ought to have been called something else to avoid the confusion. By logical extension I'd think that the intent is therefore that Warlock spell slots are incompatible with any non-Warlock feature mentioning spell slots.

Your DM could always rule otherwise, but I would not allow them to be "bottled up" into Artificer elixirs. The short rest recorvery exploit is clearly beyond the intent of either class feature, as its explicitly trying to contort the rules into giving you more spell slots than you should have. The only way to make bottling Warlock spells fair is for (1) the "bottled" spells to expire when you short rest and have to be remade, or (2) lock the Warlock spell slots so they cannot be recovered until the elixir is used.

 

[Mistwell]

The multiclass rules exclude Warlock levels from the counting toward multiclass spell slot progression. To me, that means that Warlock "spell slots" aren't spell slots the way that other casters can conceive of them, and really ought to have been called something else to avoid the confusion. By logical extension I'd think that the intent is therefore that Warlock spell slots are incompatible with any non-Warlock feature mentioning spell slots.

Your DM could always rule otherwise, but I would not allow them to be "bottled up" into Artificer elixirs. The short rest recorvery exploit is clearly beyond the intent of either class feature, as its explicitly trying to contort the rules into giving you more spell slots than you should have. The only way to make bottling Warlock spells fair is for (1) the "bottled" spells to expire when you short rest and have to be remade, or (2) lock the Warlock spell slots so they cannot be recovered until the elixir is used.

I mean, the Alchemist is nearly universally considered to be woefully underpowered. Do you think such a ruling makes them overpowered? I don't. I don't even think it catches them up really to even other artificers, but I am looking to see how optimized one could make an alchemist to at least try to catch them up.

 

[Zardnaar]

I mean, the Alchemist is nearly universally considered to be woefully underpowered. Do you think such a ruling makes them overpowered? I don't. I don't even think it catches them up really to even other artificers, but I am looking to see how optimized one could make an alchemist to at least try to catch them up.

The way I look at it is this.

1. The Alchemist is a half caster.
2. It doesn't deal a lot of damage.
3. It's elixers are powerered by spell slots, while duplicating spell effects.

Conclusion. It's elixers should be in addition to its spell slots.

Kind of like the other half casters who might get things keyed off spell slots (paladins) but they get plenty of other abilities and those spell slots enhance other abilities.

One can duplicate an alchemist but better just with a very basic life cleric build.

 

[NotAYakk]

The multiclass rules exclude Warlock levels from the counting toward multiclass spell slot progression. To me, that means that Warlock "spell slots" aren't spell slots the way that other casters can conceive of them, and really ought to have been called something else to avoid the confusion. By logical extension I'd think that the intent is therefore that Warlock spell slots are incompatible with any non-Warlock feature mentioning spell slots.

Your DM could always rule otherwise, but I would not allow them to be "bottled up" into Artificer elixirs. The short rest recorvery exploit is clearly beyond the intent of either class feature, as its explicitly trying to contort the rules into giving you more spell slots than you should have. The only way to make bottling Warlock spells fair is for (1) the "bottled" spells to expire when you short rest and have to be remade, or (2) lock the Warlock spell slots so they cannot be recovered until the elixir is used.

Warlock spell slots are spell slots.

When you houserule, consider all of:
1. Does this break the game?
2. Does this make no sense?
3. Is it cool?

This doesn't break the game, it makes sense, and it is readonably cool.

So don't ban it.

Of course there are a lot of DMs who instead default to "ban it". Enjoy.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I cannot see any reason that this would not work within the strict letter of the rules.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Warlock spell slots are spell slots.

When you houserule, consider all of:
1. Does this break the game?
2. Does this make no sense?
3. Is it cool?

This doesn't break the game, it makes sense, and it is readonably cool.

So don't ban it.

Of course there are a lot of DMs who instead default to "ban it". Enjoy.

Not clear. Multiclass rules explicitely allow casting a spell with the other one, fueling class features are a different beast.
I however do indeed believe that the alchemist is at the weaker side of combat prowess.
10 Minute flight or non concentration bless seems quite powerful for noncombat situations. Flaming sphere is also a good spell no other alchemist has access to.
What I don´t like is that some features of the alchemist work against each other. Explicitely the bonus to heaing spells does not work with his potions. That makes creating a potion with spell slowts less desirable for the healing effect at least.

 

[cbwjm]

I think warlock is the only class that has features which specify "warlock spell slot" typically for those once per day invocations so that you can multiclass as a wizard and use those 1st level slots in place of the 4th level spell slot that the warlock would have access to. Every other class typically mentions spell slot since if you're a multiclass artificer/wizard your levels stack for determining spell slots so how would you know which ones belong to artificer and which to wizard? Since warlock spell slots are still spell slots, this definitely works and maybe a multiclass warlock/artificer (alchemist) would work well as the potion brewing witch archetype, using those warlock spell slots for brewing extra potions.

 

[NotAYakk]

Spellcasting features say you can spend your gained spell slots on $ClassFoo spells; the MC rules add an exception to that.

The rules never say you can only fuel your class festures with specific kinds of spell slots. So no MC rules exception is needed. The lack of such an exception is only relevant if you couldn't do it without the exception, like casting spells.

Look at the spellcasting and pact magic features.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

I think it's fine.

If you want to add some kind of limit, you might say that you have to have at least one encounter between each rest.