Artificer magic item replenishment

[invokethehojo]

About to start a campaign in which a player will be trying an artifecer.

Question: the artificer feature...

Arcane Replenishment
You can restore energy drained from a magic item. During a short rest, you can recharge an item’s daily power. You can recharge an item that has a level less than or equal to your level + your Intelligence modifier. You can use arcane replenishment once per day, plus you gain one additional use for each milestone you reach. An item can be recharged by arcane replenishment only once per day.

The way I understand it a character can only use 1 daily magic item power per day at heroic teir. Does this power create a loophole to get around that rule, or does it just mean that the item can be used again if you have other uses left or by another character that has other uses left?

 

[Siberys]

Keep in mind that you get one additional daily magic item power usage per milestone.

You can only use a given magic item's daily power once per day, however. That's what Arcane Replenishment gets around.

 

[Runestar]

My reading is that while the item's charge is replenished, it still does not let you get around the 1/day limit for each item.

So say, at 1st lv, a fighter uses the daily power of a magic longsword he has. Even after it has been recharged by the artificer, he can't use it again. So the only real use is if he then passes the item to another PC to use.

This also means that the extra use he gets per milestone is wasted. Maybe the other PC could pass his daily item to him to use (perhaps after being recharged by the artificer as well?).

While he does get another daily item use per milestone, he must use it on a separate item (nothing in the artificer's entry states anything about overriding the limitations set on page 226 of the PHB, namely that each use must be on a separate item).

The final version of the artificer may change this though.

 

[Stogoe]

My reading is that while the item's charge is replenished, it still does not let you get around the 1/day limit for each item.

Who would ever design something like that? It's obvious how it works. You use the Flaming Sword's daily power, then use Arcane Replenishment on the Flaming Sword. After your milestone, you can use the Flaming Sword's daily power again.

Any other way seems a deliberate misreading.

 

[Runestar]

Who would ever design something like that? It's obvious how it works. You use the Flaming Sword's daily power, then use Arcane Replenishment on the Flaming Sword. After your milestone, you can use the Flaming Sword's daily power again.

Well, the PHB page 226 also has rules allowing you to spend a healing surge to recharge an item's daily power, but I believe it also states that this does not allow you to use that daily power again (ie: you can't use it again).

I see arcane replenishment as simply being a variant of this rule. It lets you use a class feature instead of surges to fuel said effect, but unless otherwise stated, is still subject to the same limitations.

All I can say is that while your interpretation is likely how it should work, it is still not how said ability would work by a strict reading of the existing 4e rules.

Perhaps the designers did not intend it to work the way I see it. Then in that case, they had better take care to expressly highlight this when the artificer is released in its final incarnation, rather than remain silent on the matter and lead to possible multiple interpretations.

 

[Obryn]

Well, the PHB page 226 also has rules allowing you to spend a healing surge to recharge an item's daily power, but I believe it also states that this does not allow you to use that daily power again (ie: you can't use it again).

Eh?

That's for Healing Surge items, not for Daily items. See: Bloodcut Armor.

Also, it specifically does state that you can use a Healing Surge item again once you've spent a Standard action to recharge it.

I see arcane replenishment as simply being a variant of this rule. It lets you use a class feature instead of surges to fuel said effect, but unless otherwise stated, is still subject to the same limitations.

It can't be a variant of a nonexistent rule.

-O

 

[mach1.9pants]

I disagree with your ruling runestar, he could use the longsword again once he has passed the milestone. Item recharged is item recharged, in the same way once a daily is used by PC X it then cannot be used by PC Y. The whole reason of the recharge is to get around the limit on the item, not around the limit on the PC.

 

[Runestar]

Eh?

That's for Healing Surge items, not for Daily items. See: Bloodcut Armor.

Also, it specifically does state that you can use a Healing Surge item again once you've spent a Standard action to recharge it.

Whoops. Ah well, I learn a new rule every day.

The whole reason of the recharge is to get around the limit on the item, not around the limit on the PC.

Isn't that my point? Arcane replenishment lets you get around the limitation of daily-use items being usable only 1/day, but not the limitation of PCs being able to use each just 1/day.

I agree that it is probably how arcane replenishment should work, but I feel that if that were the case, the designers should word it better. I don't write the rules, I simply interpret them, and as currently written, I see nothing in said ability explicitly stating that it lets you overcome the aforementioned limitation.

After all, since the artificer is still in the playtest stage (IIRC), then all the more we should poke holes in its design so they can be rectified ASAP.

Maybe it is simply an issue of me still being stuck too much in 3e's "Don't assume it lets you do X unless the entry explicitly states so" syndrome.

 

[Inyssius]

Isn't that my point? Arcane replenishment lets you get around the limitation of daily-use items being usable only 1/day, but not the limitation of PCs being able to use each just 1/day.

There is no such limitation! Your one scrap of claimed "evidence" was both A) unrelated and B) wrong anyway!

When you want to use a daily item power, there are two limitations.
1. You must have at least one daily item power "slot" left.
2. The specific item daily power must not have been used yet that day.

You want to introduce a third limitation, for which there is no textual, logical, or fluff support whatsoever:
3. You specifically must not have used that specific item daily power that day.

This argument is silly.

 

[Runestar]

There is no such limitation! Your one scrap of claimed "evidence" was both A) unrelated and B) wrong anyway!

2 actually. I concede to the latter being completely erroneous and irrelvant, and apologize for any confusion caused as a result. But I reread my PHB, and still stand by my original position.

Simply put, the PHB states 2 restrictions on using an item's power.

1) Each use of a magic item daily power must come from a different magic item.

So at lv11, while you start with 2 uses, they must come from 2 separate items. Even when the artificer recharges one of them, you still can't use it, because it is from the same item.

You want to introduce a third limitation, for which there is no textual, logical, or fluff support whatsoever:
3. You specifically must not have used that specific item daily power that day.

2) Each time you reach a milestone, you gain one additional use of a magic item daily power. This benefit can be used to activate any magic item daily power that you have not already used this day (even if you’ve already used a different daily power from that magic item).

Note the bolded line.

So you can use a different power from the same magic item courtesy of having reached a milestone, but not the power that was just refreshed, because by definition, it has already been used (by you).

So arcane replenishment likely needs to have a tag saying "You may use that recharged power again, as though it had not been used for the day. This is an exception to the rule on page226 of the PHB stating that you may use a daily power only once each day." or something along that line.

I am not sure - is there something faulty with my line of reasoning? I thought this part was fairly straightforward, but I seem to have trouble in articulating my point across...??? It just seems somewhat awkward when I put it across like that.