Arwend Setting magic System

[Wolv0rine]

UPDATED 3/5/07

This magic system is actually broken down into sub-systems, as Wizards & Bards cast differently from Sorcerers, who cast differently from Divine casters.
Of the three groups presented (there are many other branches of magic for the future; Sigil magic, Places of Power, Gem Magic, etc) only the first tracks and uses Mana directly, although all Arcane magic requires it to function on an in-game level.
And yes, this system is as-yet un-playtested, it saddens me to say.

The following is not currently OGL material. However, like anything else, feel free to use it in your own games if you like. Comments and Critiques are welcome, and if you do use if in your own game, all I ask if that you let me know how it worked for you.

Wizards

In Brief: Spell level = Mana cost; Mana = (Intelligence Mod. + Wiz Level) * 2

Learning Spells
To be able to use a spell, a Wizard must first succeed in learning and understand it. When a Wizard studies a spell for the first time, he is entitled to a Spellcraft check (DC: 15 + spell level) to attempt to comprehend it. If the check succeeds, then the Wizard may freely memorize and cast the spell. If the check fails, the Wizard must wait until his Spellcraft modifier increases by at least 1 before making another attempt.

Memorizing Spells
A Wizard who wishes to venture from his spell books must memorize those spells he wishes to have access to while he is away. The Wizard can hold these spells in his memory for a given time before needing to return to his spell books to study them again, during this time the spells may be cast freely as long as the Wizard has sufficient Mana to power them.

A Wizard can memorize a number of spell levels equal to (Wizard Level x Intelligence bonus). Each spell is equal to its level (1st level spells count as 1, 2nd level spells count as 2, etc) except for 0 level spells which count as 1 spell level per two spells memorized. The Wizard can allot these levels any way he sees fit.
Once the Wizard has exceeded his memorization time limit without studying from his spellbook, he loses 1 spell (determined randomly) from his memorized set, starting at the highest level he has memorized.

{Example: Tophin, a 9th level Wizard with a 16 Intelligence, can memorize 27 spell levels. He could chose to memorize six 1st level spells (Shield, Mage Armor, Mount, Identify, Spider Climb, and Magic Missile), four 2nd level spells (Fog Cloud, Web, Mirror Image, and Summon Monster II), two 3rd level spell (Dispel Magic, and Fly), and one 4th level spell (Ice Storm).
Tophin may cast them any way he cares to spend his 24 Mana -- assuming for the sake of argument that Tophin hasn’t used his two ability score increases to add to his Intelligence.}

Memorizing the same spell more than once is impossible. For the duration that the wizard has a spell memorized that spell may be cast as long as there is mana to empower it.
The Wizard can store these spells in his memory for a given time equal his Intelligence – (1 + spell level) days.

{Example: Tophin, memorizes Shield, a 1st level spell. Tophin can hold Shield in memory for 14 days (16 – (1+1)). Tophin also memorizes the 4th level spell Ice Storm, and can hold it in memory for 11 days (16 – (1+4)).}

Optional Simplified Memorization
Acknowledging that the above rules for individual spell memorization introduce a large amount of bookkeeping, you may opt to use the Simplified Memorization.
Simplified Memorization tracks spells memorized by level instead of individually. The Wizard can retain all spells he has memorized for Int. – (1 + spell level) days.
Once the Wizard has exceeded his memorization time limit without studying from his spellbook, he loses 1 spell (determined randomly) from his memorized set, starting at the highest level he has memorized.

{Example: Tophin memorizes the 1st level spells Shield, Mage Armor, Mount, Identify, Spider Climb, and Magic Missile -- the 2nd level spells Fog Cloud, Web, Mirror Image, and Summon Monster II -- the 3rd level spell Dispel Magic, and Fly -- and the 4th level spell Ice Storm.
Tophin can retain all six 1st level spells for 14 days, all four 2nd level spells for 13 days, both 3rd level spells for 12 days, and the 4th level spell for 11 days. Regardless of how many spells per level he memorizes, Tophin only worries about how long he can memorize a spell level, not each spell itself.}

Mana
The Wizard’s Mana allotment is equal to his (Intelligence modifier + his wizard level) * 2.

A Wizard’s Mana stores replenish themselves naturally when spent.

• During sleep, Mana replenishes at a rate of 3 pts. per hour.
• In full rest conditions (not sleeping, but inactive and relaxed) mana replenishes at a rate of 2 pts. per hour.
• In semi-restful conditions (marginally active, such as a slow walk or riding), Mana replenishes at a rate of 1 pts. per hour.
• In non-restful periods, Mana cannot replenish itself.

The Wizard can replenish his mana pool completely with 8 hours of restful sleep.

Casting Spells
A spell costs the Wizard 1 Mana per spell level of the spell (Cantrips cost 0 Mana).

A Wizard may chose to cast spell directly from his spell book if it is available. Doing so does not require the Wizard to have the spell memorized, nor does it cause the spell to disappear from the spell book as happens with a scroll. However, the Wizard does need to spend 1 round reading over the spell before casting it straight from his spell book.

Meta-Magic
The Wizard may apply any Meta-Magic feats he possesses to his spells. Each meta-magic feat applied to a spell raises the Mana cost of the spell by +1 for every spell level the meta-magic feat would normally increase the spell by.

{Example: Tophin, wishes to cast an Empowered Magic Missile. Empowered Spell raises the spell’s slot by two levels, thus Tophin must spend 3 Mana to cast an Empowered Magic Missile.}

Sorcerers

In Brief: Charisma check (15 + (spell level*2))

Learning Spells
The sorcerer most often learns spells by seeing them cast by someone else.

A Sorcerer may learn a new spell at any time if she can see the spell being cast. The Sorcerer must study the spell as it is being cast, after which she must make a Spellcraft check (DC: 15 + Spell level). If the check succeeds, the Sorcerer has grasped the spell on a subconscious level and may cast it from then on. If the check fails, the Sorcerer cannot grasp the spell and must wait until his Spellcraft modifier increases by at least 1 before making another attempt.

Memorizing Spells
The Sorcerer does not memorize spells. Being an instinctive caster who grasps the principles of a spell on a sub-conscious level, the Sorcerer has no conscious knowledge of how a spell works, and so has nothing to memorize.
It is because of this that a Sorcerer cannot teach a Wizard spells the Sorcerer knows, as Wizard cannot understand the casting of the Sorcerer and becomes confused by the skipped steps and paraphrased verbal components.

Mana
Because of the peculiarity of their spell-casting methods, Sorcerers do not need to keep track of Mana. A Sorcerer can channel far greater quantities of arcane energy, far faster, than a Wizard. It is this floodgate of arcane power than makes channeling it and shaping it so very difficult.

Casting Spells
To cast a spell, the Sorcerer must make a Charisma check (DC: 15 + (spell level * 2)), adding his Spellcraft to the roll. If the check succeeds then the spell is successfully cast. If the check is failed, the Sorcerer must check for Arcane Burn.
A Sorcerer may Take 10 on a casting check when not in combat.

Meta-Magic
A Sorcerer who wishes to apply meta-magic feats to his spells may do so, adding +1 to the DC of casting the spell for each level the feat would normally raise the spell.

Bards

In Brief: Spell level=Mana cost; Mana=Charisma Mod + Bard Level * 2

Learning Spells
The Bard must learn the special way of performing the spell he wishes to cast. This functions exactly like the Wizards learning of new spells.

Memorizing Spells
The Bard must also commit to memory the precise performance required for the spell. This also functions exactly like the Wizards memorization.

Mana
Like a Wizard, a Bard is able to channel a given amount of Mana, depending on both his level and his Charisma.
The Bard’s Mana allotment is equal to his Charisma modifier + Bard level.

Casting Spells
To cast a spell the Bard must perform, blending the arcane energy into the very essence of the performance.
The Bard must make a Perform check (DC: 15 + spell level), adding his Spellcraft modifier to the roll (if any). If the check succeeds then the spell is cast, if the check fails the Bard will suffer Arcane Burn.

While they consult the same spell lists, Bards and Wizards cannot exchange, aid in, or teach each other spells because the nature of their magic use is fundamentally different.

Meta-Magic
Bards may apply any meta-magic feats they possess in the same manner as Wizards.

Divine Magic

In Brief: Ability Score: Faith. FAI=(Wisdom Mod + Class Lvl) *1.5; Lesser Access=4th Lvl or less, Greater=5th lvl or higher. FAI check (DC 15+ *2 spell lvl)

Learning Spells
The divine caster does not learn new spells in the way other spell-casters do. Because her spells are bestowed upon her in the form of miracles by her deity, the divine caster potentially has access to all divine spells.
However, the divine caster is limited in her spell usage by the level of access her deity allows her. Lesser Access allows the divine caster to utilize miracles up to 4th level, while Greater Access allows her to utilize spells of 5th level and higher.

{In my campaign world, Clerics and Druids receive Lesser Access until 9th level, at which point they are granted Greater Access. Paladins never receive Greater Access.}

Memorizing Spells
Divine casters do not memorize spells, every miracle they perform being effectively an act of spontaneous magic.

However, once every 24 hours (or once a day, if your world’s day-cycle isn’t 24 hours) the divine caster must spend an hour in prayer; reciting litanies, asking for guidance, chanting her deity’s glory, reaffirming her faith, etc.
If this ceremony is not performed, the divine caster will lose access to all spells of the highest level she can cast. This will happen every day that the divine caster does not perform the ceremony of devotion, losing another level of spells until the ceremony is once again performed.
Once the ceremony is performed, the divine caster regains the last spell level she lost. She regains another spell level each day the ceremony is performed (in the order they were lost) until she regains all the spell levels she lost.

Mana
Divine casters do not have Mana scores, instead having a score called Faith (FAI). Faith is equal to the divine caster’s (Wisdom modifier + her class level) * 1.5.

Casting Spells
To cast a spell, the divine caster must maker a FAI check after praying for the miracle (DC: 15 + (spell level * 2)). This check represents the divine caster’s strength of faith and devotion to her deity, which affects the likelihood of the deity allowing the miracle to occur.
If the check succeeds, the spell is cast. If the check fails, the miracle is withheld – possibly due to a waiver in the character’s faith at a crucial moment sensed by her deity.
All divine spells require something sacred to the caster’s deity as a focus (holy symbol, symbolic flower or animal, etc).
Each casting attempt lowers your Faith rating by a certain amount based on the spell. For lesser access spells you lose 1 pt. of Faith, for greater access spells you lose 3 pts. of Faith. This loss lasts until the Divine Caster again performs the Ceremony of Devotion. Lesser access spells meta-magiced beyonf 4th level reduce Faith by 2 pts.
If the Divine Caster fails a casting attempt, he may expend additional Faith equal to the amount he failed his Faith check by to turn the Faith check into a success.
A Divine Caster may Take 10 on a casting check when not in combat.

{Note: Yes, this Does put low-level Clerics in a bind. I may well change FAI to Wis Mod+Caster Level*2 to match the Wizard & Bard. On the other hand, that gives higher-level Clerics outlandish FAI check rolls. So it's kind of a toss-up.}

Meta-Magic
A divine caster who wishes to apply meta-magic feats may do so; adding +1 to the DC of casting the spell for each level the feat would normally raise the spell.

Arcane Burn
When an arcane spell-caster is channeling arcane energy (i.e. casting or maintaining a spell), he is very vulnerable. If he takes damage and loses his concentration during this time by failing a Concentration check, he suffers a backlash of magical power.
He must then make a Fort save (DC: 10+spell level) to avoid taking 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell being cast (modified by meta-magic feats, if any).
If that check fails, then a Will check must be made (DC: 10+spell level) to avoid losing 1 point from the character’s primary casting ability score permanently.
There is no immunity to this magic and no way to reduce the amount of damage, as it is pure magical energy channeled through the caster’s body. There are no spells, magic items or feats that can protect a mage from arcane burn.

Divine casters are protected from the dangers of arcane burn by their deity, who buffers the power of the magic for their mortal champion.

Optional: Spell-casting Fatigue
Many spellcasters in books can cast spells almost at will, but they also suffer dearly for it, as the magic seems to take something from them.
In truth, arcane spell casting is wearying -- you can't simply throw off a few fireballs during a battle and be as fresh at the end of the battle as you were at the beginning.

A wizard or bard takes 1 point of subdual damage per point of Mana spent, while a sorcerer takes 1 point per spell level cast (adjusted by any meta-magic feats applied).
This subdual damage can be healed as normal. If a character is reduced to 0 hit points in this manner they will fall immediately unconscious, unable to awaken until they have regained 10% of their HP total
{That 10% of HP total isn't firm either, it may be better all-around to allow the character to awaken when they reach 1 HP again.}

Divine spellcasters suffer from casting fatigue as well (similar to the Sorcerer), the strain of focusing their belief in the manifest power of their deity takes its toll on the body as well.

 

[Pyrex]

Wizards
1) When a wizard can keep a spell memorized for a couple weeks, is it really worth the overhead to track when any given spell 'expires'? Given how rarely it'll be relevant it doesn't seem worthwhile to me, why not just let wizards keep them memorized as long as they want?

2) Similarly to in the other thread where I've been discussing a similar system, a 20th level wizard only being able to cast 50 spell-levels in a day seems really low. A 10th level wizard with ~26 points is really going to be hurting. There are lots of nice mid-level buffing and divination spells that are going to totally fall by the wayside here.

3) Given how few spells/day the wizard gets to cast anyway, having is mana-regen so low that it takes a high-level wizard two full nights of rest (3/hr * 8hrs = 24mp for a 20th level wizard with 50mp...) seems really restrictive. 3/hr is fine on the go, but I'd add a note that 8 hours of rest fully restores the mana pool.

4) I'd skip the 1/2 point for cantrips, it's just not worth worrying about. Cantrips want to be free.

5) Is there a maximum amount of mana your wizards can use per round? I'd presume it's (CasterLevel+1)/2, which lines out to the standard Wizard, but it's not called out anywhere.

 

[Pyrex]

Sorcerer:

1) Can a sorcerer learn a spell by seeing a creature use an SP or SU ability? By watching another sorcerer cast the spell? Or only by seeing a wizard cast it? It's not clear.

2) Wow, that totally blows the sorcerers spells-known wide-open. A sorcerer is going to learn any low-level arcane spell available to the party in a matter of days.

3) High-level sorcerers are screwed. AFAIK, it's nearly impossible for a non-epic character to make the DC 33 Cha check required to learn a 9th level spell. The max CHA a 20th level Sor can be expected to have is 34, for a +12 bonus, meaning their maximum roll is a 32, meaning they still need to roll a 19 to learn an 8th level spell and can't learn 9th level spells at all. Characters with less-superhuman CHA scores will find it nearly impossible to learn even 7th level spells (DC 29)

4) Contrariwise, using the same DC for a Cha-based Spellcraft check is pathetically easy at mid-to-high levels. Around level 8 they'll be able to cast L1 spells on a roll of a 1. Around level 14 they'll be able to cast L6 spells on a roll of a 1. Assuming they ever learn any L8 or L9 spells, they'll be able to cast those on a roll of a 1 by the time they learn them. Seems strong.

 

[Wystan]

I like this idea, but I also see where Pyrex is correct. The points available is a bit low and the overnight regen is also a bit low. I would say that casters can 'Power nap' once per day to regain 1d4+2 mana points and have a full night rest refresh the pool.

 

[Wolv0rine]

Wizards
1) When a wizard can keep a spell memorized for a couple weeks, is it really worth the overhead to track when any given spell 'expires'? Given how rarely it'll be relevant it doesn't seem worthwhile to me, why not just let wizards keep them memorized as long as they want?

A valid question. On the surface it would seem that once you’re memorizing spells for weeks at a time that it may become a form of meaningless flavor text issue. But, it’s there for 2 primary reasons:
a) The term ‘memorization’ was used specifically. This is meant to model how long the Wizard can keep all these complex, intricate formulae clear enough before his memory starts to get too cloudy on them and he needs to study up on them again. It’s not a simulation of memory (which would be vastly more complex even as a game simulation), but a model like so many other D&D things.
b) If the Wizard just gets to memorize his spells for however long he wants (which would be forever for most players) then Spellbooks become effectively useless. By putting a limit on how long the Wiz can remember his spells well enough to still cast them, he is forced to go back to his spellbooks and make use of them.

2) Similarly to in the other thread where I've been discussing a similar system, a 20th level wizard only being able to cast 50 spell-levels in a day seems really low. A 10th level wizard with ~26 points is really going to be hurting. There are lots of nice mid-level buffing and divination spells that are going to totally fall by the wayside here.

This was something I did a lot of juggling with, and to an extent I’m still juggling the formulae. Like I said at the top of the original post, I haven’t been able to get around to playtesting this system yet, and before that happens bugs happen.
That said, I will admit that I’m not a huge fan of the “Everyone gather ‘round for the regularly scheduled buff session” school of spellcasters. Buff spells are nice, but I’m not really big on them being a central/regular tactic. There should be, imho, a degree (and I’m not claiming this formulae hits it square yet, necessarily) of responsibility a Wizard should take in deciding for himself if a given spell is the right things to do at the moment.
The hard part is getting the formulae just sweet so that low level Wizards have enough mana but not too much, mid-level wizards have generous mana but not too much, and high level casters have high level mana pools. All using the same formulae (you doubtless noticed that I am not using the spells/level from RAW as the guideline for that spot here).
Also, I plan to follow this thread up with one detailing how magic items work in the system. Or at least the part(s) I’ve got “finished”. Specifically relevant are Wands and Staves. Wands you may remember from the Potterverse Wands discussion (some pages down from here now) where we stole a few posts to get me to see the hiccup you were having with them. Staves foremost purpose, for example, is Mana Battery. They can also have spells woven into them (and to say more before I post the other thread would just be a disservice to it, and confusing). But arcane casters carry wands to make their spells stronger, and they carry staves [primarily to have another reserve of mana.

3) Given how few spells/day the wizard gets to cast anyway, having is mana-regen so low that it takes a high-level wizard two full nights of rest (3/hr * 8hrs = 24mp for a 20th level wizard with 50mp...) seems really restrictive. 3/hr is fine on the go, but I'd add a note that 8 hours of rest fully restores the mana pool.

I honestly can’t think of a good reason why not, now that you mention it. That part of the system (mana recovery rates) is one of the few remaining sections left intact from where this system was at many generations of change ago. Approx. circa 1991.
So, full night’s rest restores your current mana pool.

4) I'd skip the 1/2 point for cantrips, it's just not worth worrying about. Cantrips want to be free.

You have no idea how close I came to doing exactly that from the beginning. Lol But I didn’t think it’d fly with people.

5) Is there a maximum amount of mana your wizards can use per round? I'd presume it's (CasterLevel+1)/2, which lines out to the standard Wizard, but it's not called out anywhere.

A maximum amount of mana you can burn/round? Frell no, man, burn all you want. You want to toss an Enlarged, Maximized, Quickened, Still, Silent Lightning Bolt? Bonus, go for it (but you are going to sweat you some bullets if you have to roll for Arcane Burn on that). You can’t cast more than 1 spell at a time, but I figured that was just common sense.

Sorcerer:

1) Can a sorcerer learn a spell by seeing a creature use an SP or SU ability? By watching another sorcerer cast the spell? Or only by seeing a wizard cast it? It's not clear.

SP and SU abilities I don’t think I thought about, BUT I would say that SP abilities would qualify (even if the creature isn’t ‘casting the spell’ per se, the Sorcerer grasps spells on a sub-conscious, intuitive level anyway, and so that should be close enough IF there is anything to observe). SU abilities would have to be, basically, spell-like abilities or there’s no spell to learn, ja?
As far as who the Sor can watch cast a spell and try to learn it, a Wiz or Sor surely. Probably not a Bard (see the note under Bard about the difference in the nature of their magic) and not a Divine Caster (because Sorcerers don’t cast divine spells).
But if it casts arcane spells in a way that the Sor can comprehend (and as things broaden and expand; between sourcebooks that introduce new things, potential magic sub-systems I have in the wings, situations like the Bard, etc… that may come down to a DM’s ruling. Which, also imho, is something we don’t see enough of).

2) Wow, that totally blows the sorcerers spells-known wide-open. A sorcerer is going to learn any low-level arcane spell available to the party in a matter of days.

Oh yeah. I’m actually surprised you didn’t catch what *I* thought was the most glaring ambiguity in the whole thing; whether or not a spell gets cast if the casting check fails. When I wrote it, my intention was that a failed casting check means no spell. But as I read through it again and again, noting that at that point only the Wizard didn’t have a chance to screw up a spell just trying to cast it, I wasn’t so sure. Finally, I left it ambiguous and figured anyone who replied to this thread would either ask or draw their own conclusion and then defend it one way or the other (depending on whether they were arguing for or against it), and then I could see how it fell overall.
But yes, the Sor’s known spells list is blown wide open. But he does have that casting check to worry about.

3) High-level sorcerers are screwed. AFAIK, it's nearly impossible for a non-epic character to make the DC 33 Cha check required to learn a 9th level spell. The max CHA a 20th level Sor can be expected to have is 34, for a +12 bonus, meaning their maximum roll is a 32, meaning they still need to roll a 19 to learn an 8th level spell and can't learn 9th level spells at all. Characters with less-superhuman CHA scores will find it nearly impossible to learn even 7th level spells (DC 29)

Hmm, there isn’t a CHA check to learn a spell for a Sorcerer. He does have to make a Spellcraft check, but not a CHA check.

4) Contrariwise, using the same DC for a Cha-based Spellcraft check is pathetically easy at mid-to-high levels. Around level 8 they'll be able to cast L1 spells on a roll of a 1. Around level 14 they'll be able to cast L6 spells on a roll of a 1. Assuming they ever learn any L8 or L9 spells, they'll be able to cast those on a roll of a 1 by the time they learn them. Seems strong.

Hmm… I get what you’re saying, but I have to wonder if being able to cast a L1 spell come 8th level with pretty much no chance to screw it up is alright? Granted I’m not entirely sure on my thoughts on L6 spells come 14th level, but 14th level ain’t peanuts either.
Hmm... I’ll ponder a caveat to possibly address that though. The Sorcerer was meant to have a lot of potential to offset the uncertain nature of his casting mechanic, but he may be getting too much. I’d like to see some more feedback on everything (if the thread pulls more, of course).

I like this idea, but I also see where Pyrex is correct. The points available is a bit low and the overnight regen is also a bit low. I would say that casters can 'Power nap' once per day to regain 1d4+2 mana points and have a full night rest refresh the pool.

*nods* The mana pools could well be too low. I’m just glad I added that *2 on the end, which wasn’t there originally! Lol

So Pyrex, what… no comments on Divine Casting?

 

[WhatGravitas]

A valid question. On the surface it would seem that once you’re memorizing spells for weeks at a time that it may become a form of meaningless flavor text issue. But, it’s there for 2 primary reasons:
a) The term ‘memorization’ was used specifically. This is meant to model how long the Wizard can keep all these complex, intricate formulae clear enough before his memory starts to get too cloudy on them and he needs to study up on them again. It’s not a simulation of memory (which would be vastly more complex even as a game simulation), but a model like so many other D&D things.
b) If the Wizard just gets to memorize his spells for however long he wants (which would be forever for most players) then Spellbooks become effectively useless. By putting a limit on how long the Wiz can remember his spells well enough to still cast them, he is forced to go back to his spellbooks and make use of them.

Hmm... what about this:
Loss of Memorized Spells: A wizard who doesn't study his spellbook regularly can remember his spells clearly for days equal his intelligence, afterwards, he loses one random spell from his memorized spells every day, beginning with the highest level spells.

This has basically the same effect, and makes it easier: You just have to keep track of "has he read his spellbook or not?"

 

[Pyrex]

So Pyrex, what… no comments on Divine Casting?

I just haven't gotten to divine yet. There's only so much time in a day y'know.

(responses to your reponses will be forthcoming as well)

 

[Pyrex]

If the Wizard just gets to memorize his spells for however long he wants (which would be forever for most players) then Spellbooks become effectively useless.

Not so. Wizards can only memorize a narrow (CL*IntMod is an interesting scaling factor, Even at high levels wizards won't have a large selection of high-level spells memorized) selection of spells. They're still going to need to go back to their spellbook frequently to change out their selection.

That said, I will admit that I’m not a huge fan of the “Everyone gather ‘round for the regularly scheduled buff session” school of spellcasters. Buff spells are nice, but I’m not really big on them being a central/regular tactic.

Right. But there are still some mid-range spells the wizard is going to need to be able to cast. Sure, you don't want the Wizard dropping a half-dozen Bulls Strength spells every combat, but you still need to be able to bust out the occasional See Invisibility or Stoneskin on your party members. Also there are several spells that wizards *should* be customarily casting on themselves. (Contingency, Mind Blank, etc).

Wizards have to buff themselves and do it intelligently, it's how they survive.

But arcane casters carry wands to make their spells stronger, and they carry staves [primarily to have another reserve of mana.

Yeah, but I can't account for that when you haven't posted the details...

A maximum amount of mana you can burn/round? Frell no, man, burn all you want. You want to toss an Enlarged, Maximized, Quickened, Still, Silent Lightning Bolt? Bonus, go for it

Breaking the meta-cap leads to fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger... You get the point.

Letting 6th level characters cast 9th level spells is *bad*, look at some of the threads, every published feat or PrC (*cough*Incanatrix*cough*DivineMetamagic*cough*) that lets casters metamagic spells beyond what they should be able to cast is broken and leads to unhappy DM's.

Oh yeah. I’m actually surprised you didn’t catch what *I* thought was the most glaring ambiguity in the whole thing; whether or not a spell gets cast if the casting check fails.

That seemed so obvious I never even noticed it wasn't there...

Hmm, there isn’t a CHA check to learn a spell for a Sorcerer. He does have to make a Spellcraft check, but not a CHA check.

Yeah, that was a misread on my part. I was mixed up by the "In Brief: Charisma check (15 + (spell level*2))" part.

Making it a spellcraft check may make it too easy.

Here's an idea, what if sorcerers had some sort of use-it-or-lose-it memorization-fades mechanic instead of wizards? Mabye for each day they don't use a spell the DC to cast goes up by one. Each time they cast the spell the DC goes down by one to a minimum of the base DC.

...Granted I’m not entirely sure on my thoughts on L6 spells come 14th level, but 14th level ain’t peanuts either.

For the DC's you really need to start at the top and work your way backward. How often do you want an average 18th level Sorcerer failing to cast a 9th level spell? How often are you willing to let a degenerately munchkin 20th level sorcerer succeed?

I'm pretty sure that in neither case do you want them casting 9th level spells when rolling a natural 1.

Once you answer those questions we can rejigger the DC's appropriately.

 

[Pyrex]

Bards:
1) In one place you state ChaMod+Level*2 mana, in another ChaMod+Level mana. I'm guessing it's +Level (because it doesn't make sense to give them as much mana as a wizard), but you ought to clear it up.

2) Where does a bard learn new spells? You state that he learns new spells "like a wizard", does the bard need a spellbook? You should clarify here a bit.

3) Perform+Spellcraft to cast? Why bother with a check? With max ranks in both a bard will never ever fail to cast. They already have a limited manapool, drop the casting check.

 

[Wolv0rine]

Hmm... what about this:
Loss of Memorized Spells: A wizard who doesn't study his spellbook regularly can remember his spells clearly for days equal his intelligence, afterwards, he loses one random spell from his memorized spells every day, beginning with the highest level spells.

This has basically the same effect, and makes it easier: You just have to keep track of "has he read his spellbook or not?"

Hmm, I kind of like the random spell thing (starting with highest level, of course). Memory is a fickle thing, it is.
I do want to have a complex and simple version of memorization, I know that. This system is heavy for the poor spallcaster's player, I know, but the overall system it was originally part of was very complex, intricate, and detailed. I want to keep that aspect of it (in honorable spirit if nothing else) by keeping a complex AND simple memorization system. I figure having both gives something to people who like simple rules, and those who like the complex, detailed type of rules.