Arwend Setting magic System

[Pyrex]

Now, to me that shows that each and every spell attempt is indeed stacking the deck significantly against the Cleric's next spell attempt. Even the L12 Conrad up there, after trying one L1 spell, one L3 spell, and one L5 spell, has his current Faith score reduced down to 10. That means his effective casting ability has been halved after 3 spells in a day.

First off, your examples look off because you're subtracting Faith=SpellLevel instead of Faith={lesser=1, greater=2} from the faith rating.

Second, your FAI scores look a little off L5*2+Wis17 = 13 FAI, L12*2+Wis18 = 28 FAI.

With a 28 Faith, L12 Conrad can cast his first 6th level then his first 5th level spell without even having to roll just by spendig 2 Faith each. (Hmm, that seems a bit low, as once he starts rolling his Faith will drop fairly fast.

What if we allow Clr's to take 10 on Faith checks outside of combat? That helps a lot.

Next I think we need to increase the Faith pool. Not by a lot, but by enough to squeeze out at least a couple more spells before the Clr has to start rolling.

I'm thinking double the Wis modifier.

Thoughts?

 

[Wolv0rine]

Point 1: Arcane Burn. I did find an backup file of that chapter, and I was right, it dealt with ability scores, not mana. So here is what Arcane Burn should look like (keeping my nerf to reverse the Will and Fort rolls)
Arcane Burn
When an arcane spell-caster is channeling arcane energy (i.e. casting or maintaining a spell), he is very vulnerable. If he takes damage and loses his concentration during this time by failing a Concentration check, he suffers a backlash of magical power.
He must then make a Fort save (DC: 10+spell level) to avoid taking 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell being cast (modified by meta-magic feats, if any).
[/b] If that check fails, then a Will check must be made (DC: 10+spell level) to avoid losing 1 point from the character’s primary casting ability score permanently.[/b]
There is no immunity to this magic and no way to reduce the amount of damage, as it is pure magical energy channeled through the caster’s body. There are no spells, magic items or feats that can protect a mage from arcane burn.

Divine casters are protected from the dangers of arcane burn by their deity, who buffers the power of the magic for their mortal champion.

So that puts the fear of Arcane Burn back into the hearts of Sorcerers.

Now, as far as a Casting Check sink for the Sorcerer... it's not a bad idea, really. Take this piece of flavor text from the Sorcerer (I re-wrote it all for the original post to pull the flavor text out, maybe it helps if I add it here):
"Sorcerers utilize arcane energy differently than Wizards do. Where a Wizard taps arcane energy by memorizing the rote formulae of Spells, a Sorcerer channels arcane energy on a subconscious level, shaping it into spell-form by desire alone. It is because of this that a Sorcerer does not require spellbooks, indeed a spellbook is completely useless to him. A Sorcerer can only learn new spells by seeing them cast by another.

Because of the peculiarity of their spell-casting methods, Sorcerers do not need to keep track of Mana. A Sorcerer can channel far greater quantities of arcane energy, far faster, than a Wizard. It is this floodgate of arcane power than makes channeling it and shaping it so very difficult and dangerous."

So that's the blurb of description on what a Sorcerer is in this system. I can see a casting check sink for him if only because of the pure effort it'd entail for him to force arcane energy into spellform by pure will. (I know, that makes it sound like the Sor should be working on a Will check, but I didn't want to pull him any farther away from the concept of a Sor from RAW than I already had). I'll think on it while I read your next post.

 

[Wolv0rine]

First off, your examples look off because you're subtracting Faith=SpellLevel instead of Faith={lesser=1, greater=2} from the faith rating.

I made a slight change from your suggestion. You suggestion draining 1 pt. of FAI for lesser spells, 2 pts. for greater spells, and 3 pts. for lesser spells metamagiced higher than L4.
I was a little less kind, taking 1 pt. per spell level attempted (not cast, attempted) for Lesser spells, and 2 pts. per spell level attempted for Greater spells and Lesser spells metamagiced higher than L4. So Conrad’s taking a hit of 1 Faith for the L1 spell, a hit of 3 Faith for the L3 spell, a hit of 4 Faith for the L4 spell, and a hit of 10 Faith for the L5 spell. Conrad tries not to cast spells like it’s Mardi Gras. 

Of course, I’d be inclined to go into the magic items and add something that could bolster Faith, just to be nice. But that’s Magic Items, not Magic. 

Second, your FAI scores look a little off L5*2+Wis17 = 13 FAI, L12*2+Wis18 = 28 FAI.

Hmm… Clr5, 17 Wis… that’s 5+3*1.5=12. Clr12, Wis 18 (12+4*1.5=24). They seem right to me. You were the one who suggested making the Faith equation CL + Wis Mod * 1.5, you know.

With a 28 Faith, L12 Conrad can cast his first 6th level then his first 5th level spell without even having to roll just by spendig 2 Faith each. (Hmm, that seems a bit low, as once he starts rolling his Faith will drop fairly fast.

Hmm, the way I was interpreting it.. Conrad would have to take a hit to his current Faith of 12 for that 6th level spell (pass or fail the FAI check), which brings him down to 12 FAI… then that 5th level spell’s gonna hit him for 10 FAI, knocking him down to 2 FAI. If anything, I’m thinking the hit may be too high the way I set it. But taking 1 pt. for Lesser spells and 2 pt. for Greater spells basically means that Conrad can try that L6 and L5 spells and have a breezy24 FAI left to play with for the day. And you know, considering the length of a day that might not be the worst thing, really…

What if we allow Clr's to take 10 on Faith checks outside of combat? That helps a lot.[/QUOTE
Hmmm, I’m be willing to entertain the notion of letting Divine Casters AND Sorcerers take 10 on casting checks outside of combat, honestly. I don’t see the harm in it.

Next I think we need to increase the Faith pool. Not by a lot, but by enough to squeeze out at least a couple more spells before the Clr has to start rolling.

Hmm, before he has to start rolling? When (disregarding the option to take 10 out of combat) does he have the ability to cast at all w/o rolling? Or am I misunderstanding your second limiter? I took it to mean that if (say) Conrad the Cleric tried to cast a 5th level spell at DC 25 and he only rolled a 21 on his casting check, he could spend 4 Faith to get the spell off. Did I get that wrong?

I'm thinking double the Wis modifier.

Thoughts?

Hmm, you mean like FAITH = (Wisdom Mod *2) + Caster Level * 1.5?

I’m not sure, really. Clarify the “before rolling” thing, and tell me if I misunderstood your second limiter right from what I said up there. I want to make sure we’re in the same place before I start changing numbers any more.

 

[Wolv0rine]

Absolutely. On any given day not only does the sorcerer likely have more spells known vs. spells memorized than the wizard (because every spell the Sor has ever learned is always available vs the Wiz only being able to memorize a set number of spell levels); but given the casting DC structure and the huge amount of healing available from party divine casters (or CLW potions) the Sor can easily belt out 2-3x as many spell levels in spells the wizard can.

If there is both a Wiz and a Sor in a party, the Sor will not only know every single spell the Wizard does, he'll also always have the right one available, and he'll easily be able to cast it more often than the wizard.

Consider a 10th level Wiz & Sor. There's no reason for the Wiz to ever bother memorizing/casting 3rd level or lower spells because the Sor already knows them all and can cast them all day without getting tired.

So do you think that a casting check sink for the Sor offsets this problem, or is the only way to pace the Sor back with the Wiz to limit his spells in some way? What if the DC for learning a new spell was higher, but got lower every time he studied the same spell being cast? That way he’d stabnd a good chance of NOT learning the spell the first time he saw it, but would instead be watching the party Wiz cast that spell he hasn’t grasped yet every time the Wiz casts it? Eventually yes he’d probably learn every spell the Wiz knows, but it’d take him a lot longer to do it, and he’s still have a chance of flubbing his casting check?

Without the limiters it's not even a contest.

With the limiters it becomes closer, but the Cleric still has the advantage because of the huge number of spells known. The Sor has to wait and see someone cast Fire Shield. The Clr just knows all 4th level spells on the base Clr list. That's huge.

I’d add in to these two that your FAI is restored to its maximum upon the completion of the daily ceremony of devotion. What better time to have your Faith Renewed, eh?

Didn't I say that?

So you did, I just missed that part. Sorry bout that.

So staying within the paradigm of Cha-based Spellcraft checks let's look at an expert 15'th level Sor and see what DC's we need:

Cha: 25 [+7] (18[Initial] + 4[Cloak] + 3[Level])
Spellcraft: 18 ranks
Addl Bonuses: +3 (Circlet of Persuasion), + 3(Skill Focus: Spellcraft), +2 (Synergy bonus from Knowledge Arcana)

Total Modifier: +33

I think this is well within the range of 'Expert' without being degenerately munchkin (which would include at least +3 to Cha from a tome, +2 to +6 Cha in racial bonuses, +6 instead of +4 from the cloak, and additional feats that increase Spellcraft).

At level 15 I certainly don't want to see more than 25% chance for an expert caster to be casting a 9th level spell. Personally I'd rather see it around 10%, but YMMV.

So, your base DC for 9th level spells is 15+9*2=33, which means it's at least 15pts (25% chance) too low.

I think the first thing we need to do is increase the scaling by Spell Level to at least *3. Or possibly change it to 10+SL*4.

10+4*SL gets us to DC 46, which is still a 40% chance for our expert caster.

15+4*SL gets us to DC 51, which is 15% chance, which seems fine at the high end but might be punitively hard for lower level casters. DC 19 seems harsh for a 1st level Sor casting a 1st level spell, but may not actually be too bad if we expect the exceptional 1st level caster to have +11 Spellcraft (+4 Cha, +4 Ranks, +3 Skill Focus).

Still seems rough, and *4 is not a healthy scaling factor as it makes things really rough on 'average' casters.

So we either need to change the roll we're using for the check, make the DC's non-linear, or add some sort of depletable component to Sor casting.

Currently I'm leaning towards giving Sor's a depletable casting check similar to my proposal for Faith.

Hmm, just for the same of lower level Sorcerers I wouldn’t go higher than *3, *4 is just cruel. And with *3 you still have that range of exceptional Sorcerers who have that 40% chance. Hey, that’s what being exceptional’s all about, right?

So… we change casting check to 15 + (spell level *3), and throw in a check sink, and you think he’s put back in his place? Or is just increasing the casting check good?

If we need both, let’s see here… a check sink… well casting itself just got a lot harder on the poor Sor… maybe he takes a -1 to his casting check rolls for the day for every failed casting check he makes? Or is that too generous?

 

[Pyrex]

I was a little less kind, taking 1 pt. per spell level attempted (not cast, attempted) for Lesser spells, and 2 pts. per spell level attempted for Greater spells

Yikes, as you've noticed, that's pretty harsh you can't have a reasonable faith score as on a modifier on a die roll and be charging SL faith per spell, it has to be much smaller to work as an ablative modifier.

Hmm… Clr5, 17 Wis… that’s 5+3*1.5=12. Clr12, Wis 18 (12+4*1.5=24). They seem right to me. You were the one who suggested making the Faith equation CL + Wis Mod * 1.5, you know.

I was advocating *1.5 for something else. For the ablative Faith score I was using a base of WisMod+Level*2

But taking 1 pt. for Lesser spells and 2 pt. for Greater spells basically means that Conrad can try that L6 and L5 spells and have a breezy24 FAI left to play with for the day. And you know, considering the length of a day that might not be the worst thing, really…

Exactly. You need to have enough Faith such that your first few high level and next several low-level casts are guaranteed to succeed in order for the ablative modifier to work.

Hmm, before he has to start rolling? When (disregarding the option to take 10 out of combat) does he have the ability to cast at all w/o rolling?

If Conrad has 24 current Faith, and tries to cast a DC 23 4th level spell there's no real need for him to even roll the Faith check as he still succeeds on a roll of a 1. Just deduct the 2 Faith for a 4th level spell, resolve the spell and move on.

Next round with a current Faith of 22, if he wants to cast the same 4th level spell again, d20+22 still meets DC 23 on a roll of a 1; so deduct 2 faith, resolve the spell and move on.

Round three he's only got d20+20 vs DC 23, so he has to roll a three or higher and thus actually has to roll.

If on round three he rolls (1)+20=21 against DC 23 he can either let the spell fail (which costs him 2 Faith for the attempt) or spend an additional 2 faith (for a total cost of 4) to bring his roll up to the required 23 to complete the cast.

 

[Pyrex]

So do you think that a casting check sink for the Sor offsets this problem, or is the only way to pace the Sor back with the Wiz to limit his spells in some way?

Spellcasting power can roughly be defined as Power == SpellsKnown*SpellsPerDay for wizards and Power == SpellsKnown*SpellsPerDay/CastingRisk for Sorcerers.

Right now the Sor is ahead on both SpellsPerDay and SpellsKnown; and Casting Risk (even with the new Arcane Burn) is too small to offset his being better at both of them.

Some part of at least one of these equations needs to change. Some of the solutions I'm offering (which I'll cover more below) should not be taken cumulatively, but rather are different options.

Hmm, just for the same of lower level Sorcerers I wouldn’t go higher than *3, *4 is just cruel. And with *3 you still have that range of exceptional Sorcerers who have that 40% chance. Hey, that’s what being exceptional’s all about, right?

So… we change casting check to 15 + (spell level *3), and throw in a check sink, and you think he’s put back in his place? Or is just increasing the casting check good?

I don't think we need both *3 and an ablative modifier. I think it's one or the other. With an ablative modifier the DC should scale by *2, since the Sor is at risk of Burn, the total modifier should increase faster than Faith to give the Sor a reasonable number of casts.

Keeping DC's at 15+SL*2, and working on a premise similar to faith where spells 1-4 cause 1pt of casting fatigue and 5+ causes 2, we already know that ChaMod+CL*2 isn't enough mana for a Sor; we need to give him at least a few more guaranteed casts per day.

Or, keep him at about the same amount of Mana but let him recover more quickly.

What if we pull CL out of both sides of the equation and just break it down to a straight Cha check? SL*2 ~= CL, so how about a straight Cha check with a DC of 10+CL (note: caster level is important here, not spell level), then posit that spellcasting inflicts a cumulative -1(1-4)/-2(5+) penalty to Cha for 1min?

If they fail the casting check, they make a (fort?) save. On a success nothing additional happens. On a failure the -1 penalty turns into 1pt of Cha damage, and the -2 penalty turns into 1pt of Cha damage and 1pt of Cha drain.

This gives them a fast recovery mechanic (the cumulative penalty fades quickly outside of combat); and a meaningful penalty for too many failed casts (damage/drain effectively reduces casting potential for the rest of the day, either for the Sor or for his Clr buddy).

 

[Wolv0rine]

Yikes, as you've noticed, that's pretty harsh you can't have a reasonable faith score as on a modifier on a die roll and be charging SL faith per spell, it has to be much smaller to work as an ablative modifier.

Yeah that knocked the poor Cleric down HARD and FAST.

I was advocating *1.5 for something else. For the ablative Faith score I was using a base of WisMod+Level*2

You were advocating it for something else, or for Faith before the ablative element was added?

Exactly. You need to have enough Faith such that your first few high level and next several low-level casts are guaranteed to succeed in order for the ablative modifier to work.

Hmm, I suppose that's fair, yeah.

If Conrad has 24 current Faith, and tries to cast a DC 23 4th level spell there's no real need for him to even roll the Faith check as he still succeeds on a roll of a 1. Just deduct the 2 Faith for a 4th level spell, resolve the spell and move on.

Next round with a current Faith of 22, if he wants to cast the same 4th level spell again, d20+22 still meets DC 23 on a roll of a 1; so deduct 2 faith, resolve the spell and move on.

Round three he's only got d20+20 vs DC 23, so he has to roll a three or higher and thus actually has to roll.

If on round three he rolls (1)+20=21 against DC 23 he can either let the spell fail (which costs him 2 Faith for the attempt) or spend an additional 2 faith (for a total cost of 4) to bring his roll up to the required 23 to complete the cast.

Hmm, that's not bad at all, right there. Of course the numbers as they stood would have been hitting Conrad for 1 pt. for a Lesser spell (L1-L4) unless that lesser spell was metamagiced highter than L4...

Hmm... do you think we'd be hitting the Cleric too hard if he took a Faith hit equal to the spell level (not 2*spell level or 3* spell level, just spell leve)? So for a L1 spell, COnrad takes 1 Faith, for a L3 spell, Conrad takes 3 Faith, L9 spell 9 Faith, etc. Or do you think sticking with a cost for Lesser and a cost for Greater is the wiser choice?

 

[Pyrex]

Hmm... do you think we'd be hitting the Cleric too hard if he took a Faith hit equal to the spell level (not 2*spell level or 3* spell level, just spell leve)? So for a L1 spell, COnrad takes 1 Faith, for a L3 spell, Conrad takes 3 Faith, L9 spell 9 Faith, etc. Or do you think sticking with a cost for Lesser and a cost for Greater is the wiser choice?

If we hit him for SL instead of {1,2} that means two things.

1) We have to give him more Faith to start with so that he gets a fair number of casts per day.

2) If he's losing up to 9 Faith per cast, once his Faith drops below the point where he's casting automatically, he's only got 2-3 spells left before the DC's become unhittable, at which point we may as well eliminate the check entirely.

For the check to be meaningful there has to be a range where casts become gradually harder, they can't go from CantFail to CantSucceed by casting two spells.

 

[Wolv0rine]

If we hit him for SL instead of {1,2} that means two things.

1) We have to give him more Faith to start with so that he gets a fair number of casts per day.

2) If he's losing up to 9 Faith per cast, once his Faith drops below the point where he's casting automatically, he's only got 2-3 spells left before the DC's become unhittable, at which point we may as well eliminate the check entirely.

For the check to be meaningful there has to be a range where casts become gradually harder, they can't go from CantFail to CantSucceed by casting two spells.

*nods* I was thinking that might be the case, but it seemed worth getting an opinion on the matter.

 

[Wolv0rine]

Okay, so for the Divine Spellcaster do we agree that the DSP's Faith total should remain the same (Wis Mod + CL), and that the Faith Cleck should remain the same (DC: 15 + (spell level * 2)), but that the DSP incurs an ablative penalty to her Faith for every spell attempt equal to (Lesser Spells=1, Greater Spells * Lesser Spells meta-magic'ed above L4=2)? And that teh DSP can burn the difference between her faith check and the target DC (or in the case of no-roll-needed, the price of the spell; Lesser or Greater) to fire the spell?

In regards to Arcane spellcasters, there IS something that could be useful that I didn't include, because I didn't write it... I just grafted it onto the system. I have included the Spell Templates from Arcana Unearthed (with some slight tweaking of course). That means there IS the mechanic of Simple, Complex, and Exotic spells to be played with.

I thought of mentioning it because while the DSP has spells broken into Lesser Access and Greater Access, that same break down't make any sense for the Arcane spellcaster. Whereas Simple, Complex, and Exotic is grand for our purposes.

What if, for the sorcerer, we break down Learning new spells AND casting spells using the S/C/E mechanic?
For Learning a new spell, the check could be DC: 15 + Spell level * (1=simple, 2=complex, 3=exotic). Optionally, we could give him a +1 cumulative mod to the learn roll for every time he studies teh same spell being cast. Thoughts on both parts of this?

For Casting a spell, the check could be DC: 15 + (spell level * (2=simple, 3=complex, 4=exotic))

That would reduce the chances of the Sor having so many spells based on how complex the spell was (thus how hard it was for him to grasp), AND depending on the complexity of the spell, it's easier or harder for him to cast them?