Arwend Setting magic System

[Pyrex]

Divine Magic:

Wow, you've made divine magic silly-powerful. Spontanous access to the entire cleric spell list including access to 4th level spells at 1st level with no limit on casting?

What prevents a 1st level cleric (before combat starts) from casting, say Giant Vermin (4th level, DC 23) every round until he rolls an 18 or higher on his Faith check and succeeds before kicking the door down and starting combat? And I *really* don't want so see a 9th level caster spending two minutes to cast Mass Heal after every combat.

Allowing arcane casters to break the meta-cap is bad enough. Allowing divine casters to actually cast higher level spells is really bad.

Especially when unlimited healing removes the sorcerers fear of Arcane Burn.

How about this for a potential re-design:

With Faith score on the order of WisMod+Level*1.5 (that gives a Faith of ~40 at 20th level vs a 9th level casting DC of 33).

Let's add the two following revisions:

1) Each casting attempt lowers your Faith rating by 1pt for lesser spells or 3pts for greater spells until your next daily hour of prayer. A lesser spell metamagiced beyond L4 costs 2pts.

2) If you fail a casting attempt, you can expend additional Faith equal to the difference to turn it into a success.

 

[Wolv0rine]

Not so. Wizards can only memorize a narrow (CL*IntMod is an interesting scaling factor, Even at high levels wizards won't have a large selection of high-level spells memorized) selection of spells. They're still going to need to go back to their spellbook frequently to change out their selection.

Well yes, this is true to change out his spells the Wizard still needs his spellbooks. But I feel that your Spellbook should be more important to a Wizard than what is effectively a tool to swap your available spells. You should depend on it, return to it the way a D&D player keeps his PH & DMG handy and refers to it when a rule slips his mind. THat's what I'm going for.
And thanks, when I try to figure how to juggle the formulae for these things, I usually try to do 3 examples for myself; low level, mid level, high level (often chosen arbitrarily as to what exact level, but "somewhere 'round there") to see if the pattern goes in the gross general manner I wanted. Somestimes (this was one) it doesn't, but I find it intersting enough to let it lie.

Right. But there are still some mid-range spells the wizard is going to need to be able to cast. Sure, you don't want the Wizard dropping a half-dozen Bulls Strength spells every combat, but you still need to be able to bust out the occasional See Invisibility or Stoneskin on your party members. Also there are several spells that wizards *should* be customarily casting on themselves. (Contingency, Mind Blank, etc).

Wizards have to buff themselves and do it intelligently, it's how they survive.

Yes, I won't dispute there there are spells that need casting, I was just saying I don't like the seeimingly all-too-prevalent "Oh, a battle. Buff us up, Scotty" that 3E gave us.

Yeah, but I can't account for that when you haven't posted the details...

I know, that's why I alluded to it. So you'd know it was there, and could account for not being able to account for it.

Breaking the meta-cap leads to fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger... You get the point.

Letting 6th level characters cast 9th level spells is *bad*, look at some of the threads, every published feat or PrC (*cough*Incanatrix*cough*DivineMetamagic*cough*) that lets casters metamagic spells beyond what they should be able to cast is broken and leads to unhappy DM's.

Feh. Letting 6th level characters cast 9th level spells leads to your character blasting through his mana pool in a New York Minute and running a dangerous chance of getting bumped and interrupted or... frell who knows what... and screaming through Arcane Burn he doesn't have the stones to stand up to. And honestly, I've nerfed Arcane Burn no fewer than three times to make this system less dangerous for arcane spellcasters.
But, really... Billy the 6th Lvl Wizard wants to cast a L9 spell? Be my guest, Billy... at best you have a 19 (20 if you're one lucky, lucky cuss) Int. That means you have no more than 20-22 Mana. That L9 spell is going to run you 9 Mana, and this gives me a wholly different idea that could solve the unhappiness of the Memorization scheme AND help re-balance this breaking of the meta-cap... (keep in mind I'm throwing this off-the-cuff more than 10 minutes after the idea struck me, it's more than half gone now. :/)
Every other caster here BUT the wizard has a casting check... even if we ignore whether or not a failed casting check negates the spell (and like you said, it seems so obvious you missed the ambiguity I put in) that check has other is dangerous for the Sor and Bard. The Wizard should have a casting check too. I just couldn't think of an explination for one because I had the memorization rules already.
But what if the Wiz needs a Spellcraft check to determine if he remembers the spell well enough to cast without failure and/or Arcane Burn? Say somethng like (I am totally making this up as I go along so if the numbers don't make any practical sense, blame ad libbing) DC 15 + (spell level)... frell I had something more interesting there, something factoring in how long it's been since you studied your spellbook, but lost it while typing (I'm sick and have had no sleep... apologies).
Anwyay, I'm hoping you get the vague concept I'm trying to remember long enough to type in. If it was too hard to Learn a L9 spell, and too hard to make the spellcraft check to have remembered it properly, ON TOP of costing you 9 Mana (sans metamagic feats)... Billy's not going to be casting many L9 spells.
BUT, it is my firm belief that Billy's character level shouldn't 100% preclude him from being able to. It should only make it Harder. D&D has always been (in my eyes) a game where you don't say "You can't", you say "It's gonna be this hard".

That seemed so obvious I never even noticed it wasn't there...

LOL... ph33r my abiguity sk1llz!

Yeah, that was a misread on my part. I was mixed up by the "In Brief: Charisma check (15 + (spell level*2))" part.

Making it a spellcraft check may make it too easy.

Here's an idea, what if sorcerers had some sort of use-it-or-lose-it memorization-fades mechanic instead of wizards? Mabye for each day they don't use a spell the DC to cast goes up by one. Each time they cast the spell the DC goes down by one to a minimum of the base DC..

Ahhhh, gotcha. Yeah the In Briefs were thrown together before teh summary document as a kind of shorter-hand blurb kind of thing, and I figured I didn't know how many people might look into the thread, and only look for something simple to read, and the In Brief seemed good. I buffed them out a LITTLE bit from the notehand version I had to begin with, but going just by that it's misleading.

Hmmm... you could be right on the Spellcraft check (it was what I could think of that scaled with level and was fairly controllable by the player. So that at 1st level, 6th level, 12th level, and upwards the check would be at least somewhat scaled to the character's level). The use-it-or-lose-it thing is interesting, but doesn't really fit the feel of the Sorcerer I've got laid down for it all. The Sorcerer, in the simplest terms I can think of at this moment, is kind of like an Arcane Savant. If you ASK him how any of it works, he has no idea. In fact you'd probably screw up his casting by asking too mch about it (I'd throw on some -1's to a Concentration check, personally, for it)... but he understands how it works and how to do it on a subconscious, visceral, gut-instinct level. It's like the kid school who watches teh teacher do a long calculus problem on the blackboard, and then proceeds to walk up and - without knowing the fundamentals of calculus - reproduces the result a week later.

For the DC's you really need to start at the top and work your way backward. How often do you want an average 18th level Sorcerer failing to cast a 9th level spell? How often are you willing to let a degenerately munchkin 20th level sorcerer succeed?

I'm pretty sure that in neither case do you want them casting 9th level spells when rolling a natural 1.

Once you answer those questions we can rejigger the DC's appropriately.

Well no, no one wants anyone casting L9 spells on a Nat 1. lol Granted there comes a level where you should be utterly confident in your casting prowess regardless of the non-epic level of the spell, but you shouldn't be perfect.

And as far as degenerately munchkin 20th Lvl Sorcerers go... either they have a spineless DM who empowers them and there's squat you and I can do about them... or their DM will see the problem and present a way to deal with it. I prefer the second method. hehe

But an 18th lvl Sor is approaching Epic Level, and should be gettring pretty darned good, even in regards to L9 spells. Not even close to Nat 1 good, but...

 

[Wolv0rine]

Bards:
1) In one place you state ChaMod+Level*2 mana, in another ChaMod+Level mana. I'm guessing it's +Level (because it doesn't make sense to give them as much mana as a wizard), but you ought to clear it up.

Well, originally none of them had the *2 on the end. I added that when I decided that IntMod+Level and ChaMod+Level was too puny. The lack of the *2 in the other place on the bard is just a slip-up of mine.

2) Where does a bard learn new spells? You state that he learns new spells "like a wizard", does the bard need a spellbook? You should clarify here a bit.

Hmm, now that IS a good question, and I'm afraid of how long that could take to explore the answer. But if I wanted a simple answer I'd say the Bard learns new spells from other bards, although there's always the chance of finding an old, ancient, famous, or even lost recorded performance (poems, odes, sheet music, epic tales, etc written down) that he could 'learn new spells' from. The Bard equivellant to finding scrolls and spellbooks.

3) Perform+Spellcraft to cast? Why bother with a check? With max ranks in both a bard will never ever fail to cast. They already have a limited manapool, drop the casting check.

And there is a reason I gave the Bard a check... it's because the bard doesn't cast spells at all. (This is a semantic/flavor point that effects mechanics, mind you). The bard learns and practices ways of performing that produce magical effects. There's no casting like a Wiz or Sor might do, it's all performance. And thus the quality and skill of any given performance should affect his magic. Now again (off the top of my head) it could be interesting to instead give the Bard a +/- to his caster level determined by how well that check does instead of making it a casting check... didn't think of that till this moment... but the check being there is to reflect that you're only as good as your last performance, basically.
BUT... maybe just a Perform check, without the Spellcraft added? I don't know... I think the Perform check to determine how well you played THIS TIME is a key part of the class and it's functioning that isn't emphasized enough in the RAW.

 

[Wolv0rine]

Divine Magic:

Wow, you've made divine magic silly-powerful. Spontanous access to the entire cleric spell list including access to 4th level spells at 1st level with no limit on casting?

What prevents a 1st level cleric (before combat starts) from casting, say Giant Vermin (4th level, DC 23) every round until he rolls an 18 or higher on his Faith check and succeeds before kicking the door down and starting combat? And I *really* don't want so see a 9th level caster spending two minutes to cast Mass Heal after every combat.

Allowing arcane casters to break the meta-cap is bad enough. Allowing divine casters to actually cast higher level spells is really bad.

Especially when unlimited healing removes the sorcerers fear of Arcane Burn.

How about this for a potential re-design:

With Faith score on the order of WisMod+Level*1.5 (that gives a Faith of ~40 at 20th level vs a 9th level casting DC of 33).

Let's add the two following revisions:

1) Each casting attempt lowers your Faith rating by 1pt for lesser spells or 3pts for greater spells until your next daily hour of prayer. A lesser spell metamagiced beyond L4 costs 2pts.

2) If you fail a casting attempt, you can expend additional Faith equal to the difference to turn it into a success.

LOL. See, this is an aspect of this system as a whole that’s been with it for so long that I forgot about it being there to mention it ahead of time. It very intentionally took the limiting power of spell selection/access away from character level and tries in various ways (and when I say various, I mean it’s gone through many more permutations and variations through the years than you see here) to instead put it within the domain of the character itself. In a way (and in specific effect in a few versions of the system) there are no spell levels (save for increasing and decreasing degrees of power of the spell upon casting), there are only spells that are more or less complex and difficult to master/understand. That may seem to be splitting hairs of difference to some people, but it’s a pretty big gulf in my eyes.

That all being disclaimered, you did make a good catch in that I don’t have a limiter on Divine casting here. That irks me, because I know I put one in there at one point and apparently that’s not the version of the file I altered to make the Original Post. Hate when that happens. So yes, there isn’t anything to keep Cole the Cleric from making FAI check after FAI check until he managed to pull off Whatever he may try to be doing, which IS bad. Now I could be crotchety and say any DM who will let you do that and NOT have your deity put the smackdown on you in any 1d4 of like 6 ways should pass the DM hat… but that’s bad design work.

RE: The removal of fear from Arcane Burn from Sorcerers -- Oh man, I think I accidentally nerfed out a hard-sweated and important feature of Arcane Burn…
See, originally the conversion I did of Ralts and Kerrick’s Arcane Burn mechanic was closer to their version, which is pretty harsh. First came the Will save, which if failed inflicted 1 pt of permanent ability damage to the caster’s Primary casting ability (Int for Wizards, Cha for Sorcerers & Bards), then came the Fort save for the direct HP damage. But I nerfed if a few times as being really harsh. And I managed to nerf the Will save penalty right out of the Sorcerer. Big oops. I’ll have to search through some other backups of my files to see if the correct version is there somewhere. I worked it out with Kerrick pretty heavily so that Sorcerers suffered as much as Wizards and Bards. But Arcane Burn carries a price to pay beyond the HP damage for Wiz, Sor, and Bard. Divine casters are still protected from Arcane Burn, and therein lies the problem you were pointing out. But I felt the mistake was important enough for this little tangent.

I can take FAI = Wis Mod + Caster Level * 1.5. I tend to forget about the 1.5 option too often, thanks for reminding me. And if it comes out that well on the bigger picture, it’s all bonus.

Again, I know that Kerrick and I worked out the problem of Divine casters being able to just keep trying, and I don’t know why that information’s not in the file I took the info from for this thread. It’s infuriating. Especially because that was like 2-3 years ago and I can’t remember what we did. But I like your suggestions, they seem to work fairly well as far as I can see without being too easy on the divine caster. The FAI check is meant to make casting miracles uncertain, but not unlikely, and offset the fact that the divine caster doesn’t have to pre-select his spells. (A house rule that I’ve used since my early days of 1E, picked up from one of the first groups I played with)

Another limiter not included here that occurs to me (I’ve been creating this as part of a whole – a campaign setting – and this part of it isn’t in the magic section or the classes section, it’s in with the Deities section) is that your deity determines which domains you have access to. So having access to 1-4th level spells is fine and dandy, but you’re not getting access to every single spell on the Cleric spell list. You’re getting what your deity provides. I could just be stating the obvious and maybe even the RAW here, like I said earlier I’m sick and haven’t slept, so my brain’s pretty cloudy. But some Clerics won’t have access to the Healing domain, some Druids won’t have access to the War domain, some Paladins won’t have access to Protection, etc.

But yeah, diminishing returns on attempts at ‘macroing’ your spells is definitely a good plan.

 

[Pyrex]

BUT, it is my firm belief that Billy's character level shouldn't 100% preclude him from being able to. It should only make it Harder. D&D has always been (in my eyes) a game where you don't say "You can't", you say "It's gonna be this hard".

To an extent I agree. But it shouldn't just be linearly harder for a 6th level character to cast a 9th level spell; I believe he should be going the extra mile and using something like an Incantation if he wants a 9th level effect. He shouldn't simply be able to expend half his daily spellcasting resources and make it happen.

... but doesn't really fit the feel of the Sorcerer I've got laid down for it all.

Which brings me to another balance point. Not only do casting classes need to be somewhat balanced internally, they also need to be balanced with regard to other spellcasting classes and to non-spellcasting classes as well.

As written above, the Sorcerer is blatantly superior to the wizard, so much so that I expect players using this system would almost never select wizard over sorcerer.

And now the cleric, arguably the strongest base class in the PHB already, blows them both out of the water.

Well no, no one wants anyone casting L9 spells on a Nat 1...But an 18th lvl Sor is approaching Epic Level, and should be gettring pretty darned good, even in regards to L9 spells. Not even close to Nat 1 good, but...

So just how hard *should* it be for a 18th level Sor to cast a 9th level spell? If it's too hard, they won't cast them at all, if it's too easy they'll cast them too often.

In either case, players don't like it when their character fails to cast a spell so they're going to wring every last point they can out of the system to drag down the failure chance.

The basic problem is that linear DC's and linear bonuses it's virtually impossible to create a check-based casting system where and 'average' L18 Sor has a reasonable chance to cast without it becoming trivially easy for the 'exceptional' or 'munchkin' L18 Sor.

 

[Pyrex]

... is that your deity determines which domains you have access to. So having access to 1-4th level spells is fine and dandy, but you’re not getting access to every single spell on the Cleric spell list. You’re getting what your deity provides... But some Clerics won’t have access to the Healing domain, some Druids won’t have access to the War domain, some Paladins won’t have access to Protection, etc.

True, clerics of different deities don't have access to all domains. But spontaneous access to the whole base cleric spell list (which gets larger with every supplement WotC publishes) is pretty amazingly powerful all by itself. A couple well-chosen domains and they outclass Wiz & Sor for spell access pretty easily.

 

[Wolv0rine]

BUT, it is my firm belief that Billy's character level shouldn't 100% preclude him from being able to. It should only make it Harder. D&D has always been (in my eyes) a game where you don't say "You can't", you say "It's gonna be this hard".

To an extent I agree. But it shouldn't just be linearly harder for a 6th level character to cast a 9th level spell; I believe he should be going the extra mile and using something like an Incantation if he wants a 9th level effect. He shouldn't simply be able to expend half his daily spellcasting resources and make it happen.

Interesting, dipping into Ritual magic already, eh? Hehe

... but doesn't really fit the feel of the Sorcerer I've got laid down for it all.

Which brings me to another balance point. Not only do casting classes need to be somewhat balanced internally, they also need to be balanced with regard to other spellcasting classes and to non-spellcasting classes as well.

True, but that’s something that, when you’re bouncing all over the place with a handful of different things like this, is devilishly hard to do until you’ve done some serious feedback gathering and playtesting. Which is why this thread is here.
I know, if I were more industrious and responsible and whatnot I’d be trying to update the Original Post with any changes that the thread brings about. But I’m just not. When I think it’s run it’s course, or when I think it’s needed for the thread to continue without being too unwieldly, I’ll either update the OP or just post the revised version for us to go with.

As written above, the Sorcerer is blatantly superior to the wizard, so much so that I expect players using this system would almost never select wizard over sorcerer.

Hmm, you really think so? I would have thought that the Wizard’s Mana Pool and guarantee of success when casting (no casting check, the ritualized, rote formulae of spells pretty much takes a lot of the ‘art’ out of it), the fact that the Wizard always knows how much power he’s got left, and what he can reasonably expect to be capable of as opposed to the Sorcerer’s open-ended potential vs. his never knowing how his magic’s going to go down would make the Wizard a nice option. Not to mention between spellbooks and scrolls, the Wizard can use outside sources to basically ‘read the spell out’, whereas the Sorcerer can’t do that. There are no Sorcerer spellbooks, and while it’s not listed in the OP rules, I don’t think a Sorcerer should be able to get much use from scrolls. He may understand magic use on a gut level, but that doesn’t mean he’s had the training to decipher the shorthand of a spell in the written form. (I know, naughty me for not thinking of that To address it earlier)

And now the cleric, arguably the strongest base class in the PHB already, blows them both out of the water.

I don’t know about blowing them both out of the water, now. The divine caster (I know I could just say Cleric, but there’s Druid and Paladin in there too… ) really isn’t that much different from the Sorcerer, mechanically. I tried to make sure there were differences, mind you. But it’s still basically a casting check based on a primary stat (or in the cleric’s case, a casting check based on a stat based on a primary stat. FAI is a little bit of a left hand turn on that one).
Now, if we bring in the limiters you suggested earlier…
The first one gives your Cleric pause before he casts indiscriminately because he knows that while he can keep trying all he wants – his deity doesn’t mind how often he tries to cast – each attempt lowers the chances of each following attempt. That means that if he goes around casting divine spells willy-nilly, he’s going to be stacking the odds against his FAI check when he may really need it.
The second one is really amusing, because it allows the Cleric to use his FAI almost like an Action Point (which is a mechanic that is used in the campaign world this system is designed specifically for, but that’s just an aside because not every game does).
Now even if we could assume every game used action points, I still like this because unlike A.P.s this is a nice FAI-sink. Just like #1 it’s stacking the deck against your next spell.
I’d add in to these two that your FAI is restored to its maximum upon the completion of the daily ceremony of devotion. What better time to have your Faith Renewed, eh?

Well no, no one wants anyone casting L9 spells on a Nat 1...But an 18th lvl Sor is approaching Epic Level, and should be gettring pretty darned good, even in regards to L9 spells. Not even close to Nat 1 good, but...

So just how hard *should* it be for a 18th level Sor to cast a 9th level spell? If it's too hard, they won't cast them at all, if it's too easy they'll cast them too often.

Alright, having taken a look at the Sor’s spells/day list I see why you’re using 18th level as your ref. point for L9 spells. According to RAW the Sor gets L9 spells ar 18th level (he gets, specifically, 3 of them). Interesting that it goes from zero L9 spells to three L9 spells. And given that the Sor in This system doesn’t have a set number of them he gets ay 18th level, I’d venture to guess that the Sor might be aimed to be managing L9 spells at about 15th-17th level. I’d say I would aim to have him trying them at 15th level.

In either case, players don't like it when their character fails to cast a spell so they're going to wring every last point they can out of the system to drag down the failure chance.

Of course they don’t. I surely imagine my name being cursed in the blackest of ways every time a casting check gets blown, and wishes of god-awful atrocities to befall my progeny. Hehe she-ite happens though.
And, I think in this case – at least partially – what you’re talking about is trying to safeguard against either powergaming or munchkinizing, and that’s not really something you can do. You can Try, yes you can… but at the end of the day any group with a suitably-determined player armed with a group and DM who will let him do it will eventually break and abuse your system to make himself more powerful than you intended him to become. :/
That said, don’t take that to mean I’m not up for trying. Just keep in mind that most everything after the original post is coming off of the top of my head. And I don’t do precise mechanics off the top of my head… I do conceptual work off the top of my head and try to hammer out the precise mechanics later.

The basic problem is that linear DC's and linear bonuses it's virtually impossible to create a check-based casting system where and 'average' L18 Sor has a reasonable chance to cast without it becoming trivially easy for the 'exceptional' or 'munchkin' L18 Sor.

Like I said, the Munchin L18 Sor is his DM’s problem. I can’t fix him. The Exceptional L18 Sor? Now him I’m interested in. Not so much to chain him, mind you, but because he interests me.
One of the design philosophies I picked up many years ago is “Life isn’t fair, and everyone is NOT created equal”. Some characters ARE better than others. If an average L18 Sor can manage to cast a L9 spell with reasonable chances, then an exceptional one should be able to do so with excellent chances. That just follows logically to me.

 

[Wolv0rine]

True, clerics of different deities don't have access to all domains. But spontaneous access to the whole base cleric spell list (which gets larger with every supplement WotC publishes) is pretty amazingly powerful all by itself. A couple well-chosen domains and they outclass Wiz & Sor for spell access pretty easily.

Hmm, my first impulse is to say that while the Cleric has access to a lot more spells potentially than either the Wiz or Sor, neither of them has a vastly powerful deity looking over their shoulder who could say at any point "No... no you can't do That in My name", but that might not fly with everyone.

I'm not really sure how to address that off the top of my head though. I don't want to put the Cleric back into the ranks of those who have to pre-select their spells, because the idea that the Cleric is performing miracles after a prayer (i.e. the casting time) really doesn't make so much sense if he's only able to pray for the specific miracles he set aside permission for earlier.

 

[Wolv0rine]

Alright, as to the Cleric's uberpower, take a look at this little pair of examples I just worked up and tell me how you think it goes toward the Cleric's power.

(Added text under "Casting Spells" for Divine Spellcasters)
Each casting attempt lowers the Divine Spellcaster’s current Faith score. For Lesser spells, each attempt lowers the Divine Spellcaster’s Faith by 1 pt. per level of the spell attempted. For Greater spells (or Lesser spells meta-magiced beyond 4th level) each attempt lowers your current Faith score by 2 pts per spell level.

Example #1: Conrad, L5 Cleric (Wis 17, FAI 12) attempts to cast Shield of Faith. The attempt, succeed or fail, will drain 1 pt. from his Faith, reducing it to 11. Conrad then attempts to cast Cure Serious Wounds, which drains his Faith by 3 pts, reducing it to 8. Finally, Conrad attempts to cast Divine Power which drains his Faith by 4 pts, reducing it to 4.

Example #2: Conrad, now a L12 Cleric (Wis 18, FAI 24) attemps to cast Shield of Faith, reducing his Faith by 1 pt., to 23. Conrad then attempts to cast Create Food & Water, reducing his Faith by 3 pts, to 20. Conrad then attempts to cast Commune, reducing his Faith by 10 pts., to 10.

If you fail a casting attempt, you may expend an amount of Faith equal to amount you failed your Faith check by to turn your failed Faith check into a success.

---
Now, to me that shows that each and every spell attempt is indeed stacking the deck significantly against the Cleric's next spell attempt. Even the L12 Conrad up there, after trying one L1 spell, one L3 spell, and one L5 spell, has his current Faith score reduced down to 10. That means his effective casting ability has been halved after 3 spells in a day.

 

[Pyrex]

Hmm, you really think so? ... the Wizard’s Mana Pool and guarantee of success ... fact that the Wizard always knows how much power he’s got left ... There are no Sorcerer spellbooks...

Absolutely. On any given day not only does the sorcerer likely have more spells known vs. spells memorized than the wizard (because every spell the Sor has ever learned is always available vs the Wiz only being able to memorize a set number of spell levels); but given the casting DC structure and the huge amount of healing available from party divine casters (or CLW potions) the Sor can easily belt out 2-3x as many spell levels in spells the wizard can.

If there is both a Wiz and a Sor in a party, the Sor will not only know every single spell the Wizard does, he'll also always have the right one available, and he'll easily be able to cast it more often than the wizard.

Consider a 10th level Wiz & Sor. There's no reason for the Wiz to ever bother memorizing/casting 3rd level or lower spells because the Sor already knows them all and can cast them all day without getting tired.

The divine caster ... isn’t that much different from the Sorcerer, mechanically... Now, if we bring in the limiters you suggested earlier…

Without the limiters it's not even a contest.

With the limiters it becomes closer, but the Cleric still has the advantage because of the huge number of spells known. The Sor has to wait and see someone cast Fire Shield. The Clr just knows all 4th level spells on the base Clr list. That's huge.

The first one gives your Cleric pause ... each attempt lowers the chances of each following attempt... The second one is ... a nice FAI-sink.

Yep, that's exactly how I intended them. Glad you like them.

I’d add in to these two that your FAI is restored to its maximum upon the completion of the daily ceremony of devotion. What better time to have your Faith Renewed, eh?

Didn't I say that?

... lowers your Faith rating by 1pt for ... until your next daily hour of prayer...

Thought I did. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

Alright, having taken a look at the Sor’s spells/day list I see why you’re using 18th level as your ref. point for L9 spells...I’d say I would aim to have him trying them at 15th level.

So staying within the paradigm of Cha-based Spellcraft checks let's look at an expert 15'th level Sor and see what DC's we need:

Cha: 25 [+7] (18[Initial] + 4[Cloak] + 3[Level])
Spellcraft: 18 ranks
Addl Bonuses: +3 (Circlet of Persuasion), + 3(Skill Focus: Spellcraft), +2 (Synergy bonus from Knowledge Arcana)

Total Modifier: +33

I think this is well within the range of 'Expert' without being degenerately munchkin (which would include at least +3 to Cha from a tome, +2 to +6 Cha in racial bonuses, +6 instead of +4 from the cloak, and additional feats that increase Spellcraft).

At level 15 I certainly don't want to see more than 25% chance for an expert caster to be casting a 9th level spell. Personally I'd rather see it around 10%, but YMMV.

So, your base DC for 9th level spells is 15+9*2=33, which means it's at least 15pts (25% chance) too low.

I think the first thing we need to do is increase the scaling by Spell Level to at least *3. Or possibly change it to 10+SL*4.

10+4*SL gets us to DC 46, which is still a 40% chance for our expert caster.

15+4*SL gets us to DC 51, which is 15% chance, which seems fine at the high end but might be punitively hard for lower level casters. DC 19 seems harsh for a 1st level Sor casting a 1st level spell, but may not actually be too bad if we expect the exceptional 1st level caster to have +11 Spellcraft (+4 Cha, +4 Ranks, +3 Skill Focus).

Still seems rough, and *4 is not a healthy scaling factor as it makes things really rough on 'average' casters.

So we either need to change the roll we're using for the check, make the DC's non-linear, or add some sort of depletable component to Sor casting.

Currently I'm leaning towards giving Sor's a depletable casting check similar to my proposal for Faith.