D&D General Asian D&D

[fuindordm]

First of all, thanks to @EzekielRaiden for navigating a difficult subject with grace and patience, and dare I say touching hearts and minds?

Regarding AD&D OA, the best parts of that book were the new character classes and spells. The classes did a good job of exploring new design space and painting in very broad strokes their societal role in the implied setting; the spells felt very different from the PH spells and did a good job of divorcing the magical traditions, especially divine magic, from western tropes.

Other parts of the book, like the honor subgame, were, as my daughter likes to say, "pure cringe".

Yes, it was an inelegant pastiche and guilty of stereotyping Asian elements out of context. It also had some good ideas that are salvageable (like most art).

I have no love or nostalgia for Kara-Tur. But I would enjoy reading and playing in an Eastern pastiche setting that has pseudo-Shinto shukenga and pseudo-Taoist wu jen, that has nations inspired not just by feudal Japan but also China, Korea, Thailand, Laos, India, and Indonesia; and that doesn't try too hard for historical accuracy but respectfully describes fictional lands and cultures that are clearly inspired by their historical analogs.

 

[beta-ray]

In these discussions, most of the worry isn't about what the Japanese will think but more about the impact it might have on Japanese-Americans, or more broadly, Asian-Americans.

Unfortunately, Japanese-Americans aren't of a single mind on these kinds of things. A lot may depend on area, generation, and just the individual. As for myself, I don't get offended easily and don't mind the mixing up of stuff, adding Japanese "flavor" to different things. That might be just me, that might be my generation, or even where I am from (Hawaii), where we liberally mix things up.

I'd like to see a new version of Kara-Tur, maybe just because I grew up when Kara-Tur was being published. I'm not against the new iterations in JttRC either, I just never read the book yet (did buy it).

I'm wondering, for those closer or more familiar to the Japanese market, how big is Magic the Gathering in Japan? I've read different things about it. I know that some of the MtG books are published by Hobby Japan like D&D 5E is, so was curious how something like Kamigawa was received and if that might be a good starting point for current D&D?

 

[MichaelSomething]

The real tragedy here is that we're never gonna get a light novel/manga/anime where a young Otaku gets isekaied into The Forgotten Realms/ Eberron / Dark Sun.

 

[humble minion]

The real tragedy here is that we're never gonna get a light novel/manga/anime where a young Otaku gets isekaied into The Forgotten Realms/ Eberron / Dark Sun.

Honestly though, isn't that just preeeeetty much what Elminster is already, with the exception of him being an OLD otaku? He's basically Ed Greenwood's avatar, and every stunning and ludicrously magically-powered woman in the Realms finds him and his enormous beard irresistable.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Technically the 80's cartoon it was an isekai.

A dread domain of Ravenloft it is practically an isekai, because they are from the earth of "the mask of the red death". In certain way, Ravenloft is a grimm isekai some times.

Also it is possible an isekai from a fictional world with advenced technology, for example from Kamiwaga: Neon Dinasty, or New Capena.

Eberron has more posibilities for an isekai, because they have got magitek, and then the technological impact by the arrival of an isekai should be lower. Do you know Mark Twain's "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court"?

If my memory doesn't fail, there was some project in Japan about D&D, and it was going to be in a new setting created by Japanese players, but in the "Western" fantasy realm.

Let's remember for the Japanese fandom the "Western" fantasy is "exotic" in their eyes in the same way Asian cultures are for us.... or decades ago the "American Far West" was exotic, until too many cowboys movies were produced.

* Some times I suspect in a future "Legend of the five rings" will become an IP owned by Hasbro.

 

[SteveC]

Honestly though, isn't that just preeeeetty much what Elminster is already, with the exception of him being an OLD otaku? He's basically Ed Greenwood's avatar, and every stunning and ludicrously magically-powered woman in the Realms finds him and his enormous beard irresistable.

I've played with Ed in a couple games (Gamehole Con once again) and I can pretty much confirm this. He loves to chat about the Realms almost as much as run a game and ... yep.

 

[GreyLord]

Kara-Tur? I believe it have too many cultural appropriation stuff that will deem problematic. Beside they got Yeonido (Korea), Yongjing (China) and Umizu (Japan) which are Nebula Award Nominated (the whole Journeys through the Radiant Citadel got nominated). Why trying to fix up Kara-Tur when they have three new and promising setting.

Because it's one of the ONLY D&D books EVER to have Asian influence.

Because Asian gamers (they exist) are NOT as interested in the same stuff that American and European gamers are (even Asian-Americans exhibit ignorance or major differences in what they find offensive in what they think appeals to East Asian gamers when they protest Oriental vs. Asian in modern culture).

Because even Chinese RPG gamers seem to prefer to OD&D take to some of the more modern American's writing on Asia RPGs today...probably...because as mentioned above...Western gamers are ignorant of what actually is important to those in East Asia (and some of them have some interesting ideas on what Westerners enjoy as well...ala...some ideas you see via Final Fantasy these days and other things...though perhaps they have a BETTER feel on what Westerner's prefer than Westerner's have of what East Asian gamers prefer).

I read the Kara-Tur RPG book recently and had NO Asian gamers take me up on any games of that. Even though it is more specific to one region of Asia they didn't want to play with that gamebook. They'd even prefer the old Oriental Adventures to that. I FEEL (meaning it's my opinion, rather than what they told me) it is because it is far too complex or more complex than what they want to digest.

That said, Oriental Adventures and Kara-Tur are still terribly outdated. I agree, a total and complete rewrite would be needed.

There needs to be something simpler and more straightforward than what many of the Western RPG makers are creating. Their needs to be MULTIPLE sourcebooks, each based on a different culture. One of the most offensive things to some Gamers in Asia is to refer to them all as "Asian." This is because Asia refers to the entire continent and the cultures and society in Asia are so diverse as to be more different than most differences you find between cultures in the Western world.

Someone from China does not want to go gaming in an "Asian" RPG based in India and pretend it's about Chinese Culture...and vice versa.

I can't say that I know the exact way or technique WotC could use to get more D&D penetration in the Asian market. It has some, but overall, it hasn't had a great deal of depth.

I agree, they LOVE the genre, they LOVE many aspects that go hand in hand with D&D. A western themed D&D is something they should probably love (and there are those who game with a Western themed RPG already), but it hasn't gotten the market penetration that it has in the West.

A rewritten (and I mean, a HEAVILY rewritten Kara-Tur, to be inclusive of many different regions to the point that it would probably have to be multiple tomes and volumes. For example, if we have an RPG based upon India, even there we'd probably need at least 3 to 4 different volumes of books because there is variance between enough cultures there to warrant that. Unfortunately, many of the Western writers don't recognize that there are vast cultural differences, even in the nation of India, to warrant that many different focuses on different cultures that could take up an entire book each by themselves) or rebranded Kara-Tur could be a way to do it.

But I expect that such books, if written to have a greater appeal to the audiences in those nations (and the market is bigger, even if we segmented the books in that way, in China and India) would lack an appeal to most Western gamers because because the values that they have culturally are so different.

And that is part of the problem. To write such RPGs would take a great deal of risk and many times companies are risk adverse, at least in how risky an endeavor it could be.

Just an opinion on my part.

Even in China you would need different books for the different era's and areas in that nation.

 

[GreyLord]

My above response was the to the initial post. I have read the rest of the thread and realized that most of this thread seems to be about Japanese Roleplaying gamers rather than Asia (and Asian Roleplaying gamers) as a whole.

Please be aware the following is JUST MY OPINION...

Japan is it's own beast, and as I noted, the recent releases of some Japanese focused material was not taken to very well by gamers of mine which are East Asian. It is a matter of what they value.

It was also noted that there are already RPG gamers in Japan. They have different preferences. The numbers are small. In THEORY, rpg games such as D&D should have a wider and broader appeal. There is a fascination in some of the same aspects of it.

I THINK (not sure) part of it is the separation of the boys from the men, and the girls from the woman. In some parts of that culture, when you are a man you don't do things that the little boys do. You focus on more manly things (and this may be something that is going out of style with the younger generations, I'm not sure, but with the older generations, men did not watch cartoons for example, they did not go and play with toys and little kids video games. Instead they would work, hang out with their work buddies, go to the bars, watch sports, and be "mature" (hard to put exactly what the term mature means, but it's what separates you from those who are not mature). You would play golf with your boss or work on finances.

This doesn't even come close to touching the traditional differences between what Men and woman do. Japan in the past (at least) has been VERY traditional in some things.

In some circles, Roleplaying games could be seen as a Boys thing. That means men don't play it, Woman don't play it, and girls normally don't play it (but could...maybe).

Some say Japan is changing, but seeing the work culture going on and how they do things in my last visit...I don't think it's changing as fast as some in the West hope it's changing, and though they show favortism to Westerners, they definitely do not want to BE westerner's (or most of them) yet.

That's just Japan. What appeals to Japan might work in China, but also might fail spectacularly. China and Japan are as different as the U.S. and Japan in some ways...and different parts of China are as different as China and the US in some places. We are talking people with deep cultural values that are varied and unique. What appeals in China and Japan are going to be vastly different than what is appealing to those in India (and, lest people forget, India is also part of Asia). What appeals in India is going to be vastly different than what appeals in Georgia or Turkmenistan.

The biggest obstacle still (as I mentioned at the end of the past above) though still remains the same in my opinion. There is a VAST market there, but to get deeper market penetration will take some very big risks. For most of corporate I think many are happy with the current trend and where it is going, as well as new ideas (electronic rather than books for example). Taking bigger risks that could get faster and deeper penetration into the Asian markets is not a risk I think most of them would be willing to take at this time...because it IS or WOULD be a massively big risk to take if done correctly (once again, in my opinion).

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

How could we explain it better with an example? In the movie Mission Impossible II there is a scene where different traditional Spanish festivals are mixed in a bizarre mash-up. I don't feel offended at all, but ashamed for other, like if you listen the mistakes by other classmate in a geography test. Or let's imagine an Europea publisher creating a steampunk far wester setting, and Northamerica is New York, California, Texas and Canada... If there differences between the diverse states of Northamerica, or between Scotland and Walles in the British islands, also there are differences between Chinese regions. This is the type of mistakes we should avoid.

If you haven't realised yet, there is a loophole to allow new worlds by 3PPs in DMGuild. The key is these being introduced as "wildspaces" within Spelljammer setting. And DMGuild allows 3PPs to publish crunch about PC species, subclasses monsters or magic item.

Now the "soft power" by Japanese is stronger than Korean or Chinese. There are 3PPs who have published for 5Ed based in Anime.

Anime 5E: Fifth Edition Fantasy Anime Role-Playing

Play Manga 5e

Our world needs heroes, and only a small band of adventurers stands between us and the darkness that threatens everything. Play Manga 5e is an anime roleplaying game option for the 5th edition of the...

www.samuraisheepdog.com

I suspect WotC would rather to create new PC species to be used in all the settings and worlds, not to be exclusive (and with their own name to be protected by trademark/copyright), and whose names aren't too linked with certain cultures. This means the shen will be only "spirit-folk", because shen is a Chinese word and this may be not wellcome by Korean and Japanese players. Or theses in their homebred settings use the "shens" and "lungs" (= "imperial" dragons) like the "evil empire". And Chinese players in settings where the evil empire are the oni.

There are lots of fantasy franchises from manga/manghua/manghwa and videogames could be relatively easy to be adapted into D&D settings.

We have also the option of a new setting with a Western look, maybe with some touch of Russian culture, and adding other touchs from jianghu/xianhian and chanbara/jidai-geki genres.

 

[MGibster]

How could we explain it better with an example? In the movie Mission Impossible II there is a scene where different traditional Spanish festivals are mixed in a bizarre mash-up. I don't feel offended at all, but ashamed for other, like if you listen the mistakes by other classmate in a geography test. Or let's imagine an Europea publisher creating a steampunk far wester setting, and Northamerica is New York, California, Texas and Canada... If there differences between the diverse states of Northamerica, or between Scotland and Walles in the British islands, also there are differences between Chinese regions. This is the type of mistakes we should avoid.

In someone created a steampunk fantasy setting inspired by American history I wouldn't be bothered in the least if they created some sort of western setting but concentrated on New York, California, Texas, and Canada and their primary influences. Their version of Not America is perfectly fine with me when it comes to a fantasy setting. I don't see this as a mistake as this fantasy setting isn't actually America.