Aside from Expertise, what are the most commonly acknowledged feat-tax feats?

[Nifft]

They do if they want two other at-wills, like Ardent and Enfeebling Strike. Virtuous Strike is ok, but at least in heroic it's worth taking Melee Training to avoid it.

Hmm, you think Radiant attacks are worth less in Heroic?

IMHO, Virtuous Strike is great at every tier. It saves you a feat in early Heroic (when such things are few), it gives you a saving throw bonus, and it gives you options for damage type. The saving throw bonus in particular is awesome, because it allows you (as a Defender) to draw fire which imposes conditions, and then throw off those conditions more easily than anyone else could. It's like the effect of Defender HP, but for conditions.

Cheers, -- N

 

[UltimaGabe]

Alright, I don't think I was being specific enough. I don't mean "Tell me what feats are so good every player will take them"- I meant "Tell me which feats seem to have been implemented purely to make up for the disparity between player bonuses and enemy bonuses at higher levels." You know, like Expertise.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Linguist.

Because everyone should just speak English.

 

[Flipguarder]

Alright, I don't think I was being specific enough. I don't mean "Tell me what feats are so good every player will take them"- I meant "Tell me which feats seem to have been implemented purely to make up for the disparity between player bonuses and enemy bonuses at higher levels." You know, like Expertise.

expertise and the two nad defense feats are it then.

 

[UltimaGabe]

expertise and the two nad defense feats are it then.

Gotcha. Thanks!

 

[Herschel]

Alright, I don't think I was being specific enough. I don't mean "Tell me what feats are so good every player will take them"- I meant "Tell me which feats seem to have been implemented purely to make up for the disparity between player bonuses and enemy bonuses at higher levels." You know, like Expertise.

There are none. Playtesting has shown that characters still hit quite easily at Epic even without expertise, for example. They are simply build choices. 'Feat Tax' is an ignorant term made up by those who want to show the designers made a mistake and are trying to fix it because they were smarter than the designers by finding the problem. In the end, feats can help mitigate poor party composition or poor tactics in order to help a group eek out a 'win' but they're just choices.

 

[FrozenChrono]

I think that's what some people do, but that's not the only way the term feat tax get's used. Most people recognize that all options (short of making your main stat an 8) are valid depending on the game and situation.

Any chance you could post a link to the thread or report that discusses the to hit balance of high level parties?

 

[Destil]

Edit - never mind, confused my ranger and rogue maths.

 

[Turtlejay]

There are none. Playtesting has shown that characters still hit quite easily at Epic even without expertise, for example. They are simply build choices. 'Feat Tax' is an ignorant term made up by those who want to show the designers made a mistake and are trying to fix it because they were smarter than the designers by finding the problem. In the end, feats can help mitigate poor party composition or poor tactics in order to help a group eek out a 'win' but they're just choices.

QFT

You will not find one opinion on whether the math is balanced here at ENworld. Several loooong threads on the subject exist. Your best bet is to see how your players do at Epic (since that is where a problem would appear, if one did exist), and make changes if needed.

Jay

 

[kilpatds]

Alright, I don't think I was being specific enough. I don't mean "Tell me what feats are so good every player will take them"- I meant "Tell me which feats seem to have been implemented purely to make up for the disparity between player bonuses and enemy bonuses at higher levels." You know, like Expertise.

• Expertise.
• The Robust Defenses Chain
• And various AC issues with various classes. Basically a class needs either "Primary or Secondary Stat to AC" or "heavy armor". Barbarians don't quite get either, nor do Shamans.
• Even with those feats and superior Armor, AC doesn't quite scale. So you need to add in the Armor Specialization feats.

I personally think of "feat taxes" as "feats I need to take to function at the baseline the game assumes" (not the baseline I'd like to assume. ). So in that vein, I think all non-strength based melee characters need Melee Training, most everyone needs something-mastery ... and that's about it. I can't think of any others off the top of my head, although I'm sure there are some class specific feats I'm missing. (A hypothetical feat to allow Avengers to reroll with their ranged targets would qualify, if it existed. For example)

All rogues pick up Nimble Blade and Backstabber, but those still aren't feat taxes.