D&D 5E Asking for suggestions

[SilanthosKB]

I am noticing more and more when playing 5th edition thatthe combat is nice that it is simplified but at the same time thissimplification is causing issues with party wipes and killing of the weakerplayer classes. Let me explain.
Most of the encounters have the party outnumbered. So thecharacter with the higher armor classes ( Fighter / Barbarians ) move forwardto try to slow the advance and try to setup a defensive front to help protectthe weaker lower armor / lower HP classes. Depending on initiative I am find weare usually surround either before we act or by the end of round 1. This doesleave any room to retreat or even setup away to help weaker players survive.
Now here is where the issue is. There is no way for thefighter to be able to stop that group from a) running right around him give allcreatures advantage ( which is huge in this version) on all attacks or worstrun right the weaker players and take them down even quicker. Yes I know theyhave 1 Opportunity attack per round but that doesn’t help when you areoutnumbered and 5 or 6 are going past you.
What I am finding that the DM we have is very lucky and withadvantage is hitting even the high armor classes (18 and 19) 60% to 75% of thetime. So the fighters by round two are at below half in their HP.
Let not talk about the lower HP characters.
I am just wondering if other are experiencing this and whatoption that we could look at to make this game fun again. It is no fun when byround 2 that 1 or 2 characters are down and the rest are getting their buttshanded to them.

 

[iserith]

What levels are you talking about? Are you using any house rules in this game? How often is your DM giving advantage to the enemies and why? Is your DM following, however loosely, the CR and XP Guidelines when creating challenges?

Are you moving stealthily to gain surprise from time to time? Are you scouting ahead to get an idea of what you may face and approaching the challenge with your eyes open? Are you taking a fictional action to assess the strength of the opposition relative to your own and then deciding whether to engage? Is any of this even possible given how your DM runs the game?

 

[kbrakke]

There are a few things.

First you are right, there is no widespread mechanic for having tanks be sticky, which is to say there are few ways to force enemies to attack the tanky characters. If you have the sentinel feat you can halt someone's movement with an opportunity attack and a few war caster shenanigans, but in general there are not many ways to do it.

Secondly it sounds like you are playing with the optional flanking rules. By default surrounding someone does not give you advantage. There is no default flanking bonus in 5e. If that is the case you need to really focus on keeping a tight formation to prevent flanking.

Assuming you are aware of the optional rule about flanking the best thing you can do is stay away. I mean it, never get closer than 120 feet to any enemies ever. Every caster can take a cantrip that has a 120 ft range, if you have a warlock make sure he has repelling blast (And agonizing for the damage) to keep pushing people away. Your martial characters might not like using a longbow, but +prof to hit for any damage is better than being dead.

What if you have to go in a dungeon? Always make sure there is nothing behind you. Start killing at the entrance and if you have a choice to go left or right, block off the passage you don't take. If a corridor is more than 10ft wide strongly consider finding another corridor to go down. If you absolutely have to enter a room that is only 30ft long, and wider than 10ft, sprint away at the first sign of danger.

But actually...
I dmed a game for a few friends and it was overall good. However I made a mistake when it came to the fighting. I made the combats too tactical for players who were much more interested in story. It's not even that they didn't like combat, they just didn't optimize for it or pay it unusual attention. This combined with the makeup of 1 barb + 2 casters meant that normal combats in tight corridors were just brutal for them and I realized they weren't having fun. This might not be similar to your group at all, but the most important thing to do is tell your DM "These combats seem very unfair to us. What do you think we should be doing differently or could you do these things differently."

As a DM I have just asked my players what they like to do in combat, their mental cinematic of their characters if you will. With that in mind I design my encounters. Sometimes I challenge them by having things that do not play to their strengths, but even when I do that, I try and add aspects that give each player a chance to shine and fit that fantasy. When I play I have an idea of how my character acts in combat and I have the most fun when they get to do that. This isn't to say that I don't want to be challenged, what I want (As a moderate power gamer) is to have a combat where my build choices and tactical choices matter, and sometimes line up with my mental fantasy of my character.

It sounds like you guys as players and the DM have different ideas of fights. You guys need to figure out where the differences lie. Often times as a DM things are unclear. Sometimes the party can be on the verge of death without you wanting it or they can absolutely destroy something you planned as hard. He could just have it out for you. Whatever the case is, before you start making very niche builds talk to the DM about what you want combat to be like.

 

[SilanthosKB]

well right now we are running the new module with theGiants. So the encounter is preset and we have a party of 5 characters. We startedit at 1 lvl and we are now 5^th level. Of the party of 5 we have 1that original from 1^st level. There is no surprise. We start combatas soon as we detect the enemies. And it seems with our DM that combat is usuallywithin the 120’ range or shorter when it starts. Our DM is giving the enemyadvantage by flacking our fighter on all sides.. So it doesn’t help to bringthe weaker players up to help the surrounding of the fighters. he just hit themfirst and puts them down in round 1. Well let’s put it this way we have hadthree major encounters. And each time the fighter was down on round 1 or 2,followed by the cleric (both 18+ AC) and or druid. Followed up by the mage andthe last one around is usually the rouge. The only reason we beat the orc in thesecond fight was cause the elves saved us. Just to note I am not playing therouge but in the past with this DM scouting doesn’t really help. Basically ifwe knew a head of time what exactly was there it would help cause other than wewould have to avoid all major fighters till this point cause I have found noway to stop the surround of the fighter or the rushing past to get to theweaker players

 

[kbrakke]

There are few things you can do, but it sounds like combat is nasty and brutal. Which is somewhat different than my DMing style, or at least what I try to do. First and foremost 18 AC is good. Less good when you start fighting giants, but actual giants are a beating. There are some monsters in the MM that get advantage for pack tactics but I do not think orcs are one of them. The automatic granting of advantage for all enemies when flanking is a house rule and as such very important to either ask about, or mitigate at all costs. Your maritals should spend time just fleeing from enemies or dodging if surrounded.

I would still very strongly suggest talking to your DM about this exact thing. Based on your posts this is not enjoyable for you. Having played the the Great Upheaval adventure from levels 1-4 this does not match with my experience. At this point I know that flanking advantage is making your tanks feel less tanky, but without knowing more it's impossible for me to figure out how a level 5 fighter goes down in one turn. 14 CON + level five gives you 44 HP and a ~10hp second wind. Taking 50+ damage in two rounds with 18 AC from goblins, orcs and ogres is difficult to do without shenanigans from someone. My guess is the flanking is providing a huge damage boost to the enemies without helping you guys out similarly.

If you just want super tanky builds I can give you some ideas, but I really think the core issue involves optional rules and mismatched goals.

 

[SilanthosKB]

well I am not actually sure where he is getting the rule from for advantage on attacks. This got me thinking. This group I am with has done this since I start. if you can get a character on the opposite side of the creature you gain advantage on your attack roll. same for creatures. So in our case DM will complete surround our front line guys gain an advantage attack if there is some one on the opposite site of the figure.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I am just wondering if other are experiencing this and whatoption that we could look at to make this game fun again. It is no fun when byround 2 that 1 or 2 characters are down and the rest are getting their buttshanded to them.

There's a number of possibilities. One is just for the DM to use smaller groups of enemies, or/and favor terrain set-ups where the front-liners can hold a line - corridors, doorways, 'chokepoints' in general. Of course, that pre-supposes that the DM agrees there's an issue.
Conversely, the players can step up their game, optimize their characters, pick fights more carefully, use strategies like focus fire and kiting, bring on more AE 'crowd control,' etc...

...but, yeah, you're not going to be able to count on the fighter holding up a mob when there's plenty of room to go around him.

 

[Lanliss]

well I am not actually sure where he is getting the rule from for advantage on attacks. This got me thinking. This group I am with has done this since I start. if you can get a character on the opposite side of the creature you gain advantage on your attack roll. same for creatures. So in our case DM will complete surround our front line guys gain an advantage attack if there is some one on the opposite site of the figure.

Yes, I do not remember which book it is in but this is Flanking, an optional rule from either the PHB or DMG.

On scouting ahead, you might be able to avoid combat altogether, simply by going around the fights you see. If the Rogue is hesitant to scout, your Druid might be able to sneak around as a mouse. If your DM sees that as a chance to smash the Druid for going off alone, there might be a bigger issue. If not, you just need to be careful.

Most important though, talk to your DM. Campaign feel is a big part of things like this. If he wants to run a Gritty realistic game, where surviving a fight against a single giant is unlikely, that may explain some the deadly bits he is throwing at you. If you do not want such a campaign, the only thing to do is talk it out.

 

[abirdcall]

well I am not actually sure where he is getting the rule from for advantage on attacks. This got me thinking. This group I am with has done this since I start. if you can get a character on the opposite side of the creature you gain advantage on your attack roll. same for creatures. So in our case DM will complete surround our front line guys gain an advantage attack if there is some one on the opposite site of the figure.

The solution is to not use that optional rule.

Not only is it not interesting because it is very easy to achieve, but it also makes everything else that grants advantage redundant. Barbarians for example are pretty bad.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The solution is to not use that optional rule.

Not only is it not interesting because it is very easy to achieve, but it also makes everything else that grants advantage redundant. Barbarians for example are pretty bad.

Or not to use /just/ that optional rule...

...opening up AoOs in some way could help, for instance. Allowing Sentinel, Oath of the Crown, or the brand new Ancestral Guardian are other examples. Or just not using encounters where it comes up in the monsters' favor constantly...